dynamic libraries A simple question. Is it possible to create shared libraries on wii? If your answer is yes, how can i do? Thank youhttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22928#msg-22928Sat, 06 Jun 2026 21:40:29 +0200 Phorum 5.2.23 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23662#msg-23662 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23662#msg-23662
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I.R.on
Well you gave the answer actually, program calles the windows API functions, which should be under a separate process's address space (maybe not)
Definitly not. All functions you can call have a working adress in the applications virtual adress space.

But that is under Windows / x86.

On the Wii, memory is adressed directly, and so far all applications can assume, they have the whole Wii (sans IOS) for themself.

Anyway, the ability to load librarys at runtime needs to be part of the application itself (staticly)




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I.R.on
(like configuring the path&device for shared libraries) this functionality should not be statically linked into the application itself
That are design choices, that still have to be made... :-D

Wanna start a draft?]]> daniel_c_w CodingSat, 04 Jul 2009 09:10:34 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23609#msg-23609 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23609#msg-23609
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daniel_c_w
I fail to see why a loader has to resident



At runtime: a program uses the Windows API functions (which are of course linked at startup) LoadLibrary and GetProcAddress to recieve a pointer to a afunction

Well you gave the answer actually, program calles the windows API functions, which should be under a separate process's address space (maybe not)... but to make it standard and configurable across all applications (like configuring the path&device for shared libraries) this functionality should not be statically linked into the application itself.

All this of course related to loading the libraries at runtime... loading at startup will not have all the benefits... the only real benefit will be as henke_37 pointed out, sharing & updating common libraries...]]> I.R.on CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 23:35:59 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23602#msg-23602 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23602#msg-23602The only good would be, that some patches in the librarys will also retroactively work in application, that were not recompiled.
On the other hand, we could create our own DLL hell :-)

As I.R.on said (well, wrote):
Quote

One another great future about dynamic libraries is they provide applications a plugin mechanism, curently we don't have such a mechanism. If ever implemented, this would be a killer feature...
]]> daniel_c_w CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 21:35:23 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23564#msg-23564 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23564#msg-23564 henke37 CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 18:06:08 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23551#msg-23551 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23551#msg-23551I know that the .elf contains these symbols, but does the .dol contain these symbols?

I will try to create a sample plugin application, i hope i will succeed :)

Thank you to all of you.]]> arasium CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 16:24:56 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23546#msg-23546 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23546#msg-23546
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I.R.on
But, yeah like everything on wii, we don't have an operating system. DLLs take the linking job from build process and put it onto the loader's (Operating system) responsibility... To do this loader should have a resident process...

On Windows there are 2 ways:
-loading the libray at startup
-loading it at runtime

At startup: the loader load (duh :-) ) the .exe file and all required DLLs into memory and adjusts the jump pointers to point at the DLL functions.
Every linker should work, because the code that is patched by the loader comes in precompiled librarys (.lib)

Basicly this is the same as patching a programm.
A patch format for the HBC has been discussed, if I remeber correctly

I fail to see why a loader has to resident



At runtime: a program uses the Windows API functions (which are of course linked at startup) LoadLibrary and GetProcAddress to recieve a pointer to a afunction]]> daniel_c_w CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 15:48:54 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23532#msg-23532 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23532#msg-23532
Dynamically linked libraries... hmm... this would only serve (the catch is below) large applications in which different libraries only used if certain conditions become true.... say a media player, instead of 6-8MB single binary we can have a small binary and a set of libraries with different sizes... also big games (currently we don't have any) can make use of it...

One another great future about dynamic libraries is they provide applications a plugin mechanism, curently we don't have such a mechanism. If ever implemented, this would be a killer feature...

But, yeah like everything on wii, we don't have an operating system. DLLs take the linking job from build process and put it onto the loader's (Operating system) responsibility... To do this loader should have a resident process... and currently we don't have any resident process while a homebrew application is executing... Yes, there is ios (or say mini) but I doubt it would suit the job...

Of course there are possibly lots of details about it regarding the toolchain and such... Possibly not too easy to implement in general...

As daniel_c_w noted, it can be implemented solely on a specific program, in it's simple form all the program should do is load a relocatable binary and arrange the parts in the main program that acceses it with the actual entrypoints from the loaded binary's metadata.]]> I.R.on CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 14:07:08 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23531#msg-23531 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23531#msg-23531
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CloneDeath
Nonono! I wasn't like "challenging" him to argue about it, I meant, did he really want to distract from the topic of answering his question and change the thread to what it should be called.

Ok, so, excuse me :)

I've an other idea to simulate shared objects. We can create forwarders to elf homebrews. But, the elf format contains the symbols of the package. So, can we use these symbols to find then execute a function (not the main) of the elf package?

I know that the .elf is bigger than the .dol, but it can resolve my problem (actually, i've created an app and i wan't to use plugins instead of always recompiling).]]> arasium CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 14:01:05 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23512#msg-23512 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23512#msg-23512
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iofthestorm
It would have to be something that the launcher does when a program starts up, and the linker would have to be modified to put in placeholders instead of actual memory locations when linking a program.

We could also use a real dynamic approach and load library funtions at runtime.]]> daniel_c_w CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 08:42:56 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23413#msg-23413 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23413#msg-23413 iofthestorm CodingFri, 03 Jul 2009 00:20:14 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23362#msg-23362 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23362#msg-23362
Back to the topic:

I don't believe a shared library is really possible. I mean, we could make a bunch of apps, each being like an "external function" then run those as if they were like a DLL... or something... I have never had to work with DLLs so that might just be the basic premise of how one works, so +shrugs+ I do know you pack multiple functions into 1 DLL though (ie: user32.dll has just about everything I need :P) so...

I mean, it would make sense doing this, but at the same time I have no idea how to approach it because I have not done anything like it on the Wii before.]]> CloneDeath CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 21:49:24 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23298#msg-23298 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23298#msg-23298
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punto
Actually "shared" is correct, that's why on all unix systems the extension is .so instead of .dll (stands for Shared Object). Only n00b windows users call them DLLs (like saying "folder" instead of directory).

Oooooh, when i've read some of the responses, i thought i were a silly man :) I'm not very familiar with unix system (but, i known what is a shared library) so i haven't respond anything.

Thank you punto, i'm not silly.


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CloneDeath
Really, punto, you want to argue about this? -_-

wikipedia]]> arasium CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 09:42:18 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23281#msg-23281 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23281#msg-23281
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CloneDeath
Anyhow, SHARED libraries are NOT supported either, to make things clear.

Why not?
We would just have to agree on a standard for it.]]> daniel_c_w CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 05:35:04 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23264#msg-23264 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23264#msg-23264page about the REL format that Nintendo is using. It's just a stub, but it's accurate as far as I know.]]> henke37 CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 02:07:54 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23263#msg-23263 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23263#msg-23263
Anyhow, SHARED libraries are NOT supported either, to make things clear.]]> CloneDeath CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 01:40:54 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23262#msg-23262 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23262#msg-23262 punto CodingThu, 02 Jul 2009 01:33:49 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23171#msg-23171 Re: dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23171#msg-23171
But, no, I am 99% sure DLL's don't work, and they might actually make your game more encumbersome to the user. The general rule is, try to include as few files as possible with your game, and try to make those files optional, so that if the user doesn't drag-and-drop them, the program will just generate them for you.

I mean this like save files and stuff. Don't rely on external maps, compile those with the source code, since they will never change (not while the game is being played*)]]> CloneDeath CodingWed, 01 Jul 2009 14:37:28 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23169#msg-23169 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23169#msg-23169
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henke37
Well, if Nintendo can do it, why not us too?
How do we know Nintendo can do it?]]> Arikado CodingWed, 01 Jul 2009 14:36:31 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23160#msg-23160 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23160#msg-23160 henke37 CodingWed, 01 Jul 2009 12:44:09 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23149#msg-23149 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23149#msg-23149
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CloneDeath
based on his previous posts, I conclude he is not a native english speaker, or he is 10 years old. Seeing as a 10yo can't program, he probably doesn't speak english.

I think if you look at "shared" library, the closest thing would be a DLL... I think... or maybe he wants to know how to "share" a library...

anyone else wanna try and interpret him?

Yes, i'm not an native english speaker :) And yes, i was speaking about DLL.

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iofthestorm
Either you're talking about dynamically linked libraries, which I don't think are possible on the Wii currently since there is no OS running during homebrew and I don't think the Homebrew Channel or any other launcher has a dynamic linker built in (although it would be a neat surprise), or you just want to make your own statically linked library, which is definitely possible, but I think you knew that.

Ok, so it isn't possible actually. Thank you.]]> arasium CodingWed, 01 Jul 2009 09:33:39 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23140#msg-23140 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23140#msg-23140
The Wii homebrew scene would only have to agree on a standard (sizes, calling conventions, file fomrat)]]> daniel_c_w CodingWed, 01 Jul 2009 06:10:01 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23030#msg-23030 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,23030#msg-23030 iofthestorm CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 20:29:03 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22973#msg-22973 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22973#msg-22973I would do it is just compile it, including the main.c. Then, copy all the .o for each .cpp file and each .h for each .cpp file, and zip them all together.

I dunno, I never really made a static library, I write all my own code and just copy the .cpp and .h generic files over between projects, so.... +shrugs+ it works. If I wanted to try a static library, the above is how I would go about trying to do it first. I never had to make a .dll before, so I don't even know how to go there @_@]]> CloneDeath CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 17:07:39 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22971#msg-22971 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22971#msg-22971
He says shared because when you develop a library you share it on wiibrew, thus it becomes a shared library :)
Actually it's a static library... so it becomes a shared static library...

Yeah, really I interpretted this way at the first attempt

ps: dunno how to create a static library... you should possibly tweak the makefile and code accordingly...]]> I.R.on CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 16:50:12 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22964#msg-22964 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22964#msg-22964
I think if you look at "shared" library, the closest thing would be a DLL... I think... or maybe he wants to know how to "share" a library...

anyone else wanna try and interpret him?]]> CloneDeath CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 16:31:39 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22954#msg-22954 Re: Shared librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22954#msg-22954 Arikado CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 15:50:56 +0200 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22928#msg-22928 dynamic librarieshttp://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?11,22928,22928#msg-22928
Thank you]]> arasium CodingTue, 30 Jun 2009 14:11:55 +0200