So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:50:03 +0200

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WikiFSX
What's so bad about some degree of socialism? Neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism can run a country.

It depends on the scenario. Just like a diverse but balanced ecosystem is the strongest, so is a mixed but balanced economy.

In the case of the health care reform, we are given far to huge a dose of socialism and it is a very, very bad thing (please read my longer posts in this thread).

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

WikiFSX — Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:21:22 +0200

What's so bad about some degree of socialism? Neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism can run a country.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

mdbrim — Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:18:50 +0200

We passed a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke. What could possibly go wrong?

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:24:56 +0200

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Phredreeke
United States is the only developed country not to have some form of publicly funded healthcare. Are you saying all other developed countries are socialist? :P

It depends on the health care system. A public option is not necessarily socialist, however forcing everyone to pay for the public option like the US is doing is.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Crisco — Sun, 28 Mar 2010 05:42:21 +0200

:O scary

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 03:07:00 +0100

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Phredreeke — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 02:23:15 +0100

United States is the only developed country not to have some form of publicly funded healthcare. Are you saying all other developed countries are socialist? :P

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

scanff — Fri, 26 Mar 2010 02:13:52 +0100

Quote
WikiFSX
By the way, illegals pay taxes on everything they would actually have to pay taxes on.

So employers of illegals are reporting their wages and paying state and federal taxes on them? illegals are filing tax returns? How's that even possible when they don't have a SSN. Their not paying property tax because you need a SSN to get a mortgage.

The only tax they pay is sales tax and everyone has to pay it including someone on vacation from another country. Of course if their illegal they could try to claim the sales tax back, but that would be rather stupid of them.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

WikiFSX — Fri, 26 Mar 2010 01:01:42 +0100

By the way, illegals pay taxes on everything they would actually have to pay taxes on.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:30:03 +0100

Guys, it's entirely possible the health care bill may be killed now: [news.yahoo.com]

Proper responses later to replies to me. I'm going on a mini vacation for several days :-D

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Crisco — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:22:49 +0100

okay, first my uncle does not make most of his money selling insurance, he makes about 90,000 selling insurance, the other 990,000 he makes by being a stock broker(I just learned this today). Also where I come from there are a lot of farms. We need immigrants to work for us. I'm very good friends with an illegal immigrant from mexico. but on the other hand I don't think we should let them come into our country and take all the jobs. This is somewhat replaying what happened in Ancient Rome:
-Rich people go on conquests
-Rich people bring back slaves
-slaves replace the commoners as cheaper labor
-to help the commoners and get more money themselves the rich people go on more conquests
and they bring back even more slaves. this cycle will continue until we all be come mutants and die.... oh well.

(also I'm very tired when I type this please forgive my copiousness of grammar and spelling mistakes, also the high probability it doesn't make sense)

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:51:25 +0100

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Arikado
Later provisions in the bill explain new taxes that everyone will be required to pay regardless of whether or not they use the government health care plan offered to everyone. People who do not use the government health care plan will ultimately pay less than those who do (depending on your insurance of course -- but I wouldn't mind paying more for better coverage), but they will still be forced to pay for it. Thus, everyone is forced to pay for government health care but not required to make use of the government health insurance plan. Here is a list of most, if not all, of the new taxes contained in the bill that everyone will be required to pay: [www.atr.org]

I just went through that list. Some of those are real increases, but have some justification, e.g.

Medicine Cabinet Tax - okay, but

Quote

This is not expected to be a big issue for consumers as only a small percentage of FSA amounts are used to purchase over-the-counter medication, Natt said. About 70 to 80 percent of FSA payments are spent on deductibles, co-payments and prescription drugs, he said.

FSA Cap - I don't think this is part of the current bill.
Corporate 1099-MISC Information Reporting - ditto.
Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals - I believe the reconciliation bill remove this.
Tax on Innovator Drug Companies - leading title, but okay.
Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers - okay, but

Quote

In approving the tax, Congress reasoned that medical-device companies could help pay for health-care reform because they stand to benefit from an increase in demand for their products as more people obtain health insurance and visit doctors.

Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 - this is not a tax. Since employees whose employers do not already do this often can't easily tell how much their insurance costs, I don't see anything wrong with it. It was also proposed by a Republican.
Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax - okay. But this is Medicare and Medicare is going insolvent pretty quickly.
Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike - does not apply if "85 percent or more of premium revenues are spent on clinical services".

Others are not in the bill, as far as I can tell, because that page is out of date. It is also heavily biased and while the descriptions of the taxes are factual, the nicknames are rather leading.

Anyway, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the bill is expected to half the number of nonelderly uninsured by 2019, not drastically increase it. They have read the bill much more thoroughly than either of us ;p

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

profetylen — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:41:29 +0100

Quote
Arikado
It's a beautiful notion, but at that point, leadership would become the new currency. People will never be equal in every way. So let's work with what we have, and try to make it better. The new American health care bill only makes things worse for everyone in a hope to benefit not the people, but the government (the vast majority of my country agrees with me).

Yes, I realize, we're far from the ideal thing, still, with no egoism, leadership won't even exist. However I think we should go in the direction towards the ideal, not away from it. How would it benefit the govenment, you say?

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Arikado
I stick to my original comment. For the record, the salaries of these health care company heads are less than many of the government officials (including those in state governments -- My state governor of NY has a salary of a whopping $179,000 a year -- but its not close to the governor of California who makes an insane $206,500 a year). Health care companies also regularly donate to medical research which is something the government certainly does not do. If anything, out government restricts research. Look at what they're doing to NASA: [www.washingtonpost.com]

Yes, that's a problem. Unfortunately, political salaries must go kinda high to avoid bribability. The thing about NASA is indeed a shame. Unfotunately, I've read to little about it to really say something, but it doesn't sound good in my ears. It's also a shame your government doesn't donate to reaserch, but hey, don't they? What about the HUGO project and other things, like that particle accelerator (which was canceled, but still)? I've got the feeling that USA heavily support research, but then, I've maybe got the wrong impression. After all, I don't live there or anywhere near it.

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Arikado
I stick to my original comment. Also, please see the last big block of text I wrote. In short: Good for business men if they're smart enough to make loads of money meanwhile doing good for millions of people. I've never had a problem with them, only been saved by them.

Maybe the ones who are saving lives arn't the worst. Still a 80 % tax income over $ 1 000 000 would still make those guys wealthier than enough.

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Arikado
1)Thats not what you said before
2)How does the policy of one nation make the world more equal?

1) It doesn't contradict what I said before.
2) USA is a part of the world and if it turns out well, there's a great chance it spreads.

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Arikado
I'm going to go back to my analogy of NY State auto insurance. Everyone has to have it. But the government offers a plan for anyone who can't afford it or get accepted for it privately. Anyone who doesn't use the government plan doesn't have to pay for it. People who work hard and are accepted on to private plans actually pay less. Furthermore, laws are in place in ensure that no one is abused by any private policies. If only the government had taken a similar approach with health care on a federal level as was hoped, things would be all good.

Yeah, that's fair. Except for one thing which I'll cover at the end of this post.

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Arikado
If your friends are only your friends because they expect you to share what you have, then I regret to inform you that your friends are using you like a tool and you should go look for some new friends. Of course in essence, this health care reform bill is only exploiting people too ...

I'm not wanting anyone of my friends to expect this. I'd like to have high taxes instead.

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Arikado
Profetylen, the United States is not a country of equality, but instead of equal opportunity. Each person, no matter where they came from, has the ability to achieve anything. Barack Obama is actually a perfect example of this: Despite growing up in a third world country, he was able to return to where he was born (if you believe he was born in Hawaii at least) and become president. Under no other political system today is this even conceivable. The more socialist our society becomes, more and more opportunity is taken away -- stories like this which our culture is based around will cease to exist if we continue on the socialist tract we are on.

Yes, the ability they have. But it's alot (ALOT) harder for one who's born on the street to get to the top than one who has a wealthy dad who pays school and stuff. (Don't know about U.S. laws, but you need to pay some of your own studies, right?)

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Arikado
Fun facts regarding the health care bill:
[www.sfgate.com] -- Unsurprisingly, Comrade Obama forgot to put promised components into the health care bill which sold some people on it. Of course, he made sure to remember to exempt himself and the rest of corrupt friends from having to abide under the bill. Most of the rest of his promised acts in the bill that we'll all be paying for soon won't even start happening until 2014 (hopefully he will not be re-elected and a new president can kill the bill by then)

Yeah, I hope that's not corruption from Obama himself (I really think he's a nice guy), but an attempt to gain enough votes to get this bill passed. This is the second bill, right? The first one, did it include the promised components?

The thing I would come back to:
You have more control when it's run by the govenment. For example, they won't waste antibiotics in the same way. The private companies do, because elseways, they'll lose customers. This happened to Sweden when we privatized the pharmacies. This will and are giving us trouble with multiresistant bacteria emerging from the exagerrated doses of antibiotics.

@scanff: I'm calling it egoism and fear. Everyone cannot work. And you'll get alot back in the form of reduced crimes and more workpower.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

scanff — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:11:09 +0100

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comex
Anyone in, say, Mexico? Really?

There's no discrimination, each year so many hundred thousand spots are open for anyone to apply for. If you don't believe me here's the official statistics from the department of homeland security for 2008. [www.dhs.gov]

As you can see legal immigrants from Mexico out number any other country ten fold.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:49:21 +0100

Quote
comex
Arikado, I'm sorry if I missed it, but I haven't seen you address this post. Under what terms of the new bill do taxpayers have to (effectively) pay for two plans?

I believe you and Dancingninja are trapped under a common misconception. The "Individual Mandate" provision of the bill requires every person in America to have a health care plan. It is illegal to not have one, and you will be fined if you do not. However, it states that you need only at least one health care plan. Later provisions in the bill explain new taxes that everyone will be required to pay regardless of whether or not they use the government health care plan offered to everyone. People who do not use the government health care plan will ultimately pay less than those who do (depending on your insurance of course -- but I wouldn't mind paying more for better coverage), but they will still be forced to pay for it. Thus, everyone is forced to pay for government health care but not required to make use of the government health insurance plan. Here is a list of most, if not all, of the new taxes contained in the bill that everyone will be required to pay: [www.atr.org]

Quote

Quote

I'm going to go back to my analogy of NY State auto insurance. Everyone has to have it. But the government offers a plan for anyone who can't afford it or get accepted for it privately. Anyone who doesn't use the government plan doesn't have to pay for it. People who work hard and are accepted on to private plans actually pay less. Furthermore, laws are in place in ensure that no one is abused by any private policies. If only the government had taken a similar approach with health care on a federal level as was hoped, things would be all good

Aren't conservatives usually against a public option?

Regardless of my general political status why would I (or anyone) be against something that helps people that's not at the expense of others who don't need the help?

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comex
Quote
Arikado
What we need are new laws that give them all the opportunity to become legal immigrants as painlessly as possible. But I assure you, you won't see that happening anytime soon under the Obama administration.

Hmm. On the first point, then, we agree.

But surely using pejorative terms does not engender this cause?

While they may, it's certainly not an illogical prediction in any way when looking at everything done by the Obama administration already.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:32:22 +0100

Anyone in, say, Mexico? Really?

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

scanff — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:30:51 +0100

Just to make it known I went through the same process as any other person. I was not sponsored by a company, it was something I decided I wanted to do, nobody helped me. Yes it was not easy, but it's a process that anyone can do.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:22:35 +0100

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Arikado
What we need are new laws that give them all the opportunity to become legal immigrants as painlessly as possible. But I assure you, you won't see that happening anytime soon under the Obama administration.

Hmm. On the first point, then, we agree.

But surely using pejorative terms does not engender this cause?

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:15:32 +0100

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comex
I suspect that most illegal immigrants did not have any reasonable opportunity to "do it the legal way".

Their life here would still be 1,000,000 times better without legal citizens unfairly being forced into supporting them. New laws in support of the illegal will only hurt you and I more.

What we need are new laws that give them all the opportunity to become legal immigrants as painlessly as possible. But I assure you, you won't see that happening anytime soon under the Obama administration.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:14:30 +0100

Arikado, I'm sorry if I missed it, but I haven't seen you address this post. Under what terms of the new bill do taxpayers have to (effectively) pay for two plans?

Quote

I'm going to go back to my analogy of NY State auto insurance. Everyone has to have it. But the government offers a plan for anyone who can't afford it or get accepted for it privately. Anyone who doesn't use the government plan doesn't have to pay for it. People who work hard and are accepted on to private plans actually pay less. Furthermore, laws are in place in ensure that no one is abused by any private policies. If only the government had taken a similar approach with health care on a federal level as was hoped, things would be all good

Aren't conservatives usually against a public option?

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:10:14 +0100

I suspect that most illegal immigrants did not have any reasonable opportunity to "do it the legal way".

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:05:36 +0100

Quote
profetylen
Quote
Arikado
I have no money on me atm. I'm broke. Give me half of the money you have. Okay, now we're equal. What do you mean you're not happy?
No that wouldn't make me happy. But if you, me and everone else would take what they have put it in a big pool and then share it equally with everone in the world, that would make cry of happyness for years. Or, even better, destroy it all (provided we're only talking about money and not actual property) and become 100 % unegoistic and share everything with whoever wants a share of whatever it is to be shared. That's as close economy can get to perfect, in my eyes.

It's a beautiful notion, but at that point, leadership would become the new currency. People will never be equal in every way. So let's work with what we have, and try to make it better. The new American health care bill only makes things worse for everyone in a hope to benefit not the people, but the government (the vast majority of my country agrees with me).

Quote

Quote
Arikado
If there's no profit, (which there won't be as you've pointed out) then the government loses money which hurts the people. I fail to understand your logic here.
The eventual loss the government will suffer is a result of the better health care they can give to the people. (If there even will be a loss. Publicly employed bosses tend to not have as shameless salaries as private ones. At least, that's the case in Sweden, I really don't know about the U.S.)

I stick to my original comment. For the record, the salaries of these health care company heads are less than many of the government officials (including those in state governments -- My state governor of NY has a salary of a whopping $179,000 a year -- but its not close to the governor of California who makes an insane $206,500 a year). Health care companies also regularly donate to medical research which is something the government certainly does not do. If anything, out government restricts research. Look at what they're doing to NASA: [www.washingtonpost.com]

Quote

Quote
Arikado
Private insurance on the other hand, the money is only exchanged between the people and never lost. Private insurance companies can make profit while providing great health care. Many do.
Some money is indeed exchanged by the people. The problem is, there are some black holes of people with too many digits in their salary (runners of health insurance companies is an example) which only gives back some of the money they earn, making the rich richer and the poor poorer. As to many black holes grow big enough, people lose their understanding of how much money is worth and economy colapses. We saw this happen the last time in 2008. One of the first big ones in modern time was in 1929.

I stick to my original comment. Also, please see the last big block of text I wrote. In short: Good for business men if they're smart enough to make loads of money meanwhile doing good for millions of people. I've never had a problem with them, only been saved by them.

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Arikado
So if you agree that health care is only going to get worse for people then why would you support this? And yeah, of course there will be a huge demand as every person is going to qualify ....
It's getting way better than it gets worse and the rich gives of their wealth to the poor, making the world more equal.

1)Thats not what you said before
2)How does the policy of one nation make the world more equal?

Quote

Quote
Arikado
Not really. It's usally a case of who gets in line first. The rich people will still get care first because they will be paying it out of pocket.
Then, another reform is needed :)

Yay, we agree :D I was screaming for reform like everyone else, but this was not the change anyone had in mind.

Quote

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Arikado
I agree. People should invest in it. The government however has no reason to.
But people don't because they can't afford it or doesn't realize they should, so the government has to do it for them, especially because they'll get the money back in forms of decreased criminality, healthier workers e.t.c.

I'm going to go back to my analogy of NY State auto insurance. Everyone has to have it. But the government offers a plan for anyone who can't afford it or get accepted for it privately. Anyone who doesn't use the government plan doesn't have to pay for it. People who work hard and are accepted on to private plans actually pay less. Furthermore, laws are in place in ensure that no one is abused by any private policies. If only the government had taken a similar approach with health care on a federal level as was hoped, things would be all good.

Quote

Another thing: Money is not happyness (well, small amounts for those who owns nothing can be, but not for the already rich, they'll just get greedier and feel worse). Friendship are happyness (among other things). You don't make friends by not sharing what you have. If this is true (is it?), which is the better alternative, publicly financed health care or privately? (As you might have guessed, I'd vote for the former.)

If your friends are only your friends because they expect you to share what you have, then I regret to inform you that your friends are using you like a tool and you should go look for some new friends. Of course in essence, this health care reform bill is only exploiting people too ...

Profetylen, the United States is not a country of equality, but instead of equal opportunity. Each person, no matter where they came from, has the ability to achieve anything. Barack Obama is actually a perfect example of this: Despite growing up in a third world country, he was able to return to where he was born (if you believe he was born in Hawaii at least) and become president. Under no other political system today is this even conceivable. The more socialist our society becomes, more and more opportunity is taken away -- stories like this which our culture is based around will cease to exist if we continue on the socialist tract we are on.

Fun facts regarding the health care bill:
[www.sfgate.com] -- Unsurprisingly, Comrade Obama forgot to put promised components into the health care bill which sold some people on it. Of course, he made sure to remember to exempt himself and the rest of corrupt friends from having to abide under the bill. Most of the rest of his promised acts in the bill that we'll all be paying for soon won't even start happening until 2014 (hopefully he will not be re-elected and a new president can kill the bill by then)

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comex
it's easy to call people illegals when you acquired the right to live here just by being born

It's just as easy to justify not paying for them when we look at people like scanff.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

scanff — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:54:05 +0100

Quote
comex
it's easy to call people illegals when you acquired the right to live here just by being born

I was not born in the US. I was born in the UK and went through a grueling 5 year immigration process which cost me thousands of dollars in fees. But I did it the legal way.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

bg4545 — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:45:20 +0100

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comex
it's easy to call people illegals when you acquired the right to live here just by being born

Like.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

comex — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:32:31 +0100

it's easy to call people illegals when you acquired the right to live here just by being born

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

scanff — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:47:29 +0100

@profetylen,

If you work above and beyond, progress your career and play the game I don't see any problem with getting paid huge amounts on money that's how capitalism works.

Socialism gives equal treatment to those with no ambition and contribute nothing to the rest of society, that just sits wrong with me. Call me conservative, a republican or a right-winger but I'm not happy that my tax dollars are going to people who don't contribute, illegals, losers and leachers ...etc...etc. You see where I'm coming from. For those of you who think a national health system is free take a look at the tax rates for countries who have it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world) and compare those to the US.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

profetylen — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:02:23 +0100

Quote
Arikado
I have no money on me atm. I'm broke. Give me half of the money you have. Okay, now we're equal. What do you mean you're not happy?

No that wouldn't make me happy. But if you, me and everone else would take what they have put it in a big pool and then share it equally with everone in the world, that would make cry of happyness for years. Or, even better, destroy it all (provided we're only talking about money and not actual property) and become 100 % unegoistic and share everything with whoever wants a share of whatever it is to be shared. That's as close economy can get to perfect, in my eyes.

Quote
Arikado
If there's no profit, (which there won't be as you've pointed out) then the government loses money which hurts the people. I fail to understand your logic here.

The eventual loss the government will suffer is a result of the better health care they can give to the people. (If there even will be a loss. Publicly employed bosses tend to not have as shameless salaries as private ones. At least, that's the case in Sweden, I really don't know about the U.S.)

Quote
Arikado
Private insurance on the other hand, the money is only exchanged between the people and never lost. Private insurance companies can make profit while providing great health care. Many do.

Some money is indeed exchanged by the people. The problem is, there are some black holes of people with too many digits in their salary (runners of health insurance companies is an example) which only gives back some of the money they earn, making the rich richer and the poor poorer. As to many black holes grow big enough, people lose their understanding of how much money is worth and economy colapses. We saw this happen the last time in 2008. One of the first big ones in modern time was in 1929.

Quote
Arikado
So if you agree that health care is only going to get worse for people then why would you support this? And yeah, of course there will be a huge demand as every person is going to qualify ....

It's getting way better than it gets worse and the rich gives of their wealth to the poor, making the world more equal.

Quote
Arikado
Not really. It's usally a case of who gets in line first. The rich people will still get care first because they will be paying it out of pocket.

Then, another reform is needed :)

Quote
Arikado
I agree. People should invest in it. The government however has no reason to.

But people don't because they can't afford it or doesn't realize they should, so the government has to do it for them, especially because they'll get the money back in forms of decreased criminality, healthier workers e.t.c.

---

Another thing: Money is not happyness (well, small amounts for those who owns nothing can be, but not for the already rich, they'll just get greedier and feel worse). Friendship are happyness (among other things). You don't make friends by not sharing what you have. If this is true (is it?), which is the better alternative, publicly financed health care or privately? (As you might have guessed, I'd vote for the former.)

Quote
Scanff
Yes there are problems but I don't think any form of Nationalized medicine will fix these. In my option the costs are driven up by the Pharmaceutical and Insurance companies. how to fix it? I have no idea.

Global maximum salary. Not just in one country because then, the professionals will move, but I think global will solve it quite well.

Also, Scanff, the state should pay doctors well, so they don't choose another profession or move. They do pay them well in Sweden, and IMO, we have a very, very good health care (for everyone).

On a side note: What I hate the most with capitalism is that it is based off egoism and so endorses it. Egosim(!), IMO the most dangerous propery of man. And we endorse it and let it grow. Socialism, on the other hand, endorses and is based off solidarity and the good will of man, two of the best properties (IMO). It is together we build our society, not alone. It is together we have built this society and gotten as far as we have. Unfortunately, of wealth comes greed, and as global wealth has increased, global greed has increased, summoning more egoism, resulting in more frequent and more devestating economic collapses and more bad deeds overall.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

profetylen — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:08:42 +0100

Wow! A thousand posts! I really need to study all day because of an exam tomorrow! I'll read and reply to all of this probably tomorrow or the day after that!

@Arikado: Of course there's no hard feelings outside of this :P I'll always love you too :D :D :D :D

@Crisco: Sorry for messing up the quoting. Too much ctrl+C, ctrl+V. Intented to quote Arikado. It's fixed now, however.

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

dancinninja — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 04:34:38 +0100

Does it now? It was my understanding that there is a fear of a dramatic drop in the quality/speed of health care in the United States and/or dramatic increase in taxes. Scanff brought up an excellent example: the government doesn't pay that much. A question arises, where do all the good doctors go? Where does anyone go, really? Where the money is. It's not evil or malicious, it's simply a matter of fact. If you could make more money elsewhere (a LOT more) you would be more inclined to move.

So, where do all the good doctors go? Without as many doctors, this creates a strain on those who stay, and the cycle feeds itself. With the ability to make more money (with the "additional" health care) the good doctors/practitioners/companies will be more inclined to stay and keep the benefits the way that they are.

I'm taking a more "economics" stance on this issue, if you don't mind (got to put all that studying to use somehow!).

Re: So, uh, the health care bill passed.

Arikado — Tue, 23 Mar 2010 03:27:39 +0100

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dancinninja
One word:

Australia.

If memory serves, they have an awesome system that provides for basic care for everyone, (yay), but also allows you to go "above" that as well, for more expensive/better treatment (yay). This way, the good doctors get paid the big bucks, and therefore will stay in the country, and everyone at least gets something.

How is this even relevant? It has nothing to do with the state of the US right now...

BTW I <3 you too!