Online playing on homebrew emulators?

Online playing on homebrew emulators? Is there any general interest or have there been discussions about enabling online play on emulated systems, kaillera style? It seems the potential is there and it would be really cool to face off against a friend on, say, the original Super Mario Kart.http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4551#msg-4551Mon, 09 Mar 2026 09:23:09 +0100 Phorum 5.2.23 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,7024#msg-7024 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,7024#msg-7024 DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsTue, 06 Jan 2009 00:49:52 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6993#msg-6993 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6993#msg-6993 Tantric Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 05 Jan 2009 19:53:47 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6974#msg-6974 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6974#msg-6974 DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 05 Jan 2009 16:27:20 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6851#msg-6851 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,6851#msg-6851 rush6432 Homebrew ApplicationsSun, 04 Jan 2009 09:20:23 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4841#msg-4841 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4841#msg-4841

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Tantric

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Jonas
ZSnes has had good network play for years. I'd call this doable.

Pointless to say. A better question is who's going to do it?

I'd like to do it, but I fear that it could take me a long time to understand the code-design of the emulators.
Is any of them well documented?]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsThu, 11 Dec 2008 16:56:43 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4835#msg-4835 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4835#msg-4835
so it is possible, now we just need to beg Tantric to implement it! :) haha]]> DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsThu, 11 Dec 2008 16:16:17 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4809#msg-4809 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4809#msg-4809 Jonas Homebrew ApplicationsThu, 11 Dec 2008 06:06:48 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4794#msg-4794 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4794#msg-4794

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Jonas
ZSnes has had good network play for years. I'd call this doable.

Pointless to say. A better question is who's going to do it?]]> Tantric Homebrew ApplicationsWed, 10 Dec 2008 23:46:06 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4792#msg-4792 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4792#msg-4792

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Jonas
ZSnes has had good network play for years. I'd call this doable.

i think it would be better to moddify the port of snes9x than to port a whole new one...]]> DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsWed, 10 Dec 2008 23:26:22 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4786#msg-4786 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4786#msg-4786 Jonas Homebrew ApplicationsWed, 10 Dec 2008 22:43:50 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4697#msg-4697 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4697#msg-4697

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daniel_c_w

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iofthestorm
Well I think if you follow that definition of piracy than running ROMs in an emulator is piracy. Even if you physically own the game, I think you have to dump it yourself for it to not be piracy.

Maybe. It depends on the laws of the place where you live.

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DrLucky
yeah, most old games are not covered by piracy laws...

Every game is protected by copyrigth laws.

Back to topic: which emulator has an easily expandable sourcecode? (c prefered)
or is the design of any of them well described?

Snes9x netplay is somewhat documented, and not too badly designed. It's also written in C. Probably not a bad place to start. FCE Ultra GX uses 0.98.12 as a base. I'd consider upgrading to a newer source base (eg: FCEUX 2.03) before attempting to integrate netplay.]]> Tantric Homebrew ApplicationsTue, 09 Dec 2008 06:10:40 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4681#msg-4681 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4681#msg-4681 Ibrewii Homebrew ApplicationsTue, 09 Dec 2008 02:08:19 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4660#msg-4660 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4660#msg-4660

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Netplay

We plan to eventually implement netplay over the Wii’s wireless connection and hopefully on the Gamecube via the broadband adapter. An alternative solution may also be to use the USBGecko together with a PC connected to the internet to allow for remote play.

so it looks like a few devs are in on the idea!]]> DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 15:18:53 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4650#msg-4650 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4650#msg-4650

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iofthestorm
Well I think if you follow that definition of piracy than running ROMs in an emulator is piracy. Even if you physically own the game, I think you have to dump it yourself for it to not be piracy.

Maybe. It depends on the laws of the place where you live.

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DrLucky
yeah, most old games are not covered by piracy laws...

Every game is protected by copyrigth laws.

Back to topic: which emulator has an easily expandable sourcecode? (c prefered)
or is the design of any of them well described?]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 10:47:51 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4634#msg-4634 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4634#msg-4634 DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 03:55:34 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4631#msg-4631 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4631#msg-4631 iofthestorm Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 03:00:02 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4630#msg-4630 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4630#msg-4630 TheManuel Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 02:54:34 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4629#msg-4629 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4629#msg-4629

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DrLucky
if you picked up a random guy on the street and brought him to your house to play in a 2 player game, it would still be legal...

You are comparing apples to oranges.

That are 2 very different situations.
If you pick up a random guy, inivte him to your home, you do not have to create a copy.]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsMon, 08 Dec 2008 02:47:17 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4597#msg-4597 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4597#msg-4597

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daniel_c_w

Sending over the game is a nice idea, but depending on your local laws it may indeed be piracy. I'm a sure it is not piracy under German law (as long as the other person is really a friend of yours and not some person you met on the internet)

It may be piracy under some other countrie's laws, because you are still creating a copy of copyrighted material
(though the copy is not persistent)

if you picked up a random guy on the street and brought him to your house to play in a 2 player game, it would still be legal...
as long as it were a temporary "copy" rom sent over the connection with no way of saving the whole rom... it would sit in the ram perhaps...old system roms are around 2 megs, gba is around 8 megs, and a 64 rom is 16 or 32 megs.. they could also be zipped...]]> DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsSun, 07 Dec 2008 04:40:51 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4594#msg-4594 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4594#msg-4594

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DrLucky
also, wouldn't some sort of server need to be set up in order for the emulators to be able to connect to each other?

...snip...

The last issue would be game "compatability" both users would have to use the EXACT SAME rom in order for it to work.

...snip....

I don't think it would be piracy since if your friend comes over to your house to play as a second player, he doesn't have to bring his own game.

A remote server is not needed! But of course at least one player needs to know the connection details of the other one (IP address, port).

Compatibility is in deed needed (both approaches (ekeeke's and my one) deal with it)

Sending over the game is a nice idea, but depending on your local laws it may indeed be piracy. I'm a sure it is not piracy under German law (as long as the other person is really a friend of yours and not some person you met on the internet)

It may be piracy under some other countrie's laws, because you are still creating a copy of copyrighted material
(though the copy is not persistent)]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsSun, 07 Dec 2008 03:12:27 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4593#msg-4593 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4593#msg-4593

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strongfan
This is evident in Brawl's online play.

I did not really analyze Brawl's network behavior, but my from a few sessions I came to the following guess.
The game uses a client/server model. The best internet connection becomes the server (so far so good Nintendo :D)
For the player on the server-Wii the game is Lag-free! For everyone else the game is as laggy as his connection.

(personal note: to me it was clear before I bought the game, that my internet connection is not fast enough, because it adds at least 55ms to every roundtrip. A complex fightitng game like brawl could not be lag free on my connection.)]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsSun, 07 Dec 2008 03:00:26 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4588#msg-4588 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4588#msg-4588 strongfan Homebrew ApplicationsSun, 07 Dec 2008 00:18:12 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4587#msg-4587 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4587#msg-4587
also, wouldn't some sort of server need to be set up in order for the emulators to be able to connect to each other?
The last issue would be game "compatability" both users would have to use the EXACT SAME rom in order for it to work. And as all emulator players know, there are multiple versions of roms: (E) (U) (bi) (b2) (b3) (!) ect...

of course, the simple solutions would be to send the rom file to the other Wii emulator for second player. I don't think it would be piracy since if your friend comes over to your house to play as a second player, he doesn't have to bring his own game.]]> DrLucky Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 23:45:58 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4583#msg-4583 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4583#msg-4583

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daniel_c_w

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ekeeke
if you didn't get any new messages, i think it's better to just keep input state in old state rather than pausing emulation and losing some frames

This is evident in Brawl's online play.]]> strongfan Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 22:06:51 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4575#msg-4575 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4575#msg-4575

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TheManuel
Well, it's worth to ask ourselves how PC games or even Wii games do it nowadays to see it that approach can be used.

Not really, because that games are tailored for online play, as opposed to SNES games, which are tailored for local play.

The network data, are generated by the games, not by their environments (emulators).
In general every genre has it's own approach. For example competitve shooters often use a client-server-modell, with the server deciding everything. If the client is laggy from his point of view he may be hitting an enemy, but the server will tell him "no you are missing", because the shoot command take too long to reach the server.

The networking requiremnets of fighting games are propably close to our problem...]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 17:02:24 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4574#msg-4574 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4574#msg-4574 TheManuel Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 16:18:44 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4573#msg-4573 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4573#msg-4573

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ekeeke
if you didn't get any new messages, i think it's better to just keep input state in old state rather than pausing emulation and losing some frames

exactly. The pause is only needed the resinc both emulators. When the sync is lost you have no other choice.
In a lan environment that is no problem, because the lantency and ping is good enough to execute any remote input on either the same or the next frame. But in todays internet neither ping nor latency are good enough.
As we both agree it won't work without an input latency. Unfortuantely that latency is not guaranteed to stay constant.]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 16:15:17 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4571#msg-4571 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4571#msg-4571if you didn't get any new messages, i think it's better to just keep input state in old state rather than pausing emulation and losing some frames]]> ekeeke Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 16:03:25 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4570#msg-4570 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4570#msg-4570

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ekeeke
I don't think it's a good idea to pause emulation when a input signal takes too much time to arrive

The pause is needed, because otherwise both emus will loose sync.
The problem with this approach:

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emulator 1 (main task) read FIFO and if (start_1 + time() ) >= (start2 + timestamp), updates player 2 data on its side
emulator 2 (main task) read FIFO and if (start_2 + time() ) >= (start1 + timestamp), updates player 1 data on its side

...is that on the one side a lot of time may have passed , before the other side even recieved anything.
Or am I missing something?]]> daniel_c_w Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 15:52:43 +0100 http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4567#msg-4567 Re: Online playing on homebrew emulators?http://forum.wiibrew.org/read.php?17,4551,4567#msg-4567emulating a second player through network is easy, you just need to read controller data from network instead of reading your usual controller input

there is 2 problems:
1/ make sure that the emulation starts in sync
2/ make sure that both emulators don't go out of sync

I don't think it's a good idea to pause emulation when a input signal takes too much time to arrive

a solution I had in mind some time ago, quite similar to yours I believe:

-->on both side, emulators send game_id then wait until receiving same game_id from other network side

emulator 1 (player 1) starts, and send starting time to emulator 2 = start_1
emulator 2 (player 2) starts and send starting time to emulator 1 = start_2

emulation loops:

emulator 1 (main task) read player 1 inputs (local) and send it to emulator 2 with timestamps = update_1
emulator 2 (main task) read player 2 inputs (local) and send it to emulator 1 with timestamps = update_2

emulator 1 (specific task) wait for messages from emulator 2 and store player 2 input data + time stamp (update_2) in a FIFO (tbd)
emulator 2 (specific task) wait for messages from emulator 1 and store player 1 input data + time stamp (update_1) in a FIFO (tbd)

emulator 1 (main task) read FIFO and if (start_1 + time() ) >= (start2 + timestamp), updates player 2 data on its side
emulator 2 (main task) read FIFO and if (start_2 + time() ) >= (start1 + timestamp), updates player 1 data on its side

--> "network" player data is only updated if it supposed to have been updated

you will endup in some kind of latency during gameplay but should be acceptable as emulation does not slowdown]]> ekeeke Homebrew ApplicationsSat, 06 Dec 2008 13:30:44 +0100