Piracy double standard?

I understand why ISO's/backups are bad, programmers such as myself and many others here put a lot of work into making their games and deserve compensation.

That being said why are ROMs okay around here (i'm guilty too before you start)? They are just the backups from a previous generation. And in most case they are still available for sale on VC.

What really is the difference between a SNES emulator and a WII Iso loader?

This is the 100th time this question has been asked.

And this is the 100th time I'll explain the difference:

Emulation is a science. Look at the two years it took the Wii64 team to develop Wii64! An ISO loader is 20 lines of original code combined with the work of other people (including Nintendo). It took marcan 4 hours to write one.

Emulation is an art. Emulator authors must have a perfect understanding of the emulated console architecture and that of the target platform. A monkey (ie: No architecture/hardware/low-level knowledge required) could write an ISO loader (and they have).

But I get what you're saying, the core "piracy" concept is still the same. But riddle me this: Pirated "modern" games are putting people out of business. Are pirated "retro" games? Hell no.

I still understand your view though. The rules "aren't fair". I agree that they're not the best solution; But they are rules. And without them, we become gbafail: A cesspool of n00bs afraid of something called an "IOS-Cat".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 06:39PM by Arikado.

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Arikado
Emulation is a science. Look at the two years it took the Wii64 team to develop Wii64! An ISO loader is 20 lines of original code combined with the work of other people (including Nintendo). It took marcan 4 hours to write one.

Emulation is an art. Emulator authors must have a perfect understanding of the emulated console architecture and that of the target platform. A monkey (ie: No architecture/hardware/low-level knowledge required) could write an ISO loader (and they have).

Whatever helps you sleep at night. The fact still remains that both are to different means to the same end, run code you didn't pay for. Code that someone slaved over and the proceeds from pay for their lively hood, even if it is just their retirement now. Regardless as to whether you are using your own code to run someone else's or their own. It's just a difference of byte arrays and processor cycles versus circuit boards and resistors.

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Arikado
But I get what you're saying, the core "piracy" concept is still the same. But riddle me this: Pirated "modern" games are putting people out of business. Are pirated "retro" games? Hell no.

So the people that collect and recompile the code for retro games for use in Virtual Console, Xbox Arcade, and Playstation Network don't deserve to be payed? Or are they just a monkey (ie: No architecture/hardware/low-level knowledge required) with a toolkit?

@swirleydude

A lot of the "Roms" people play are in the public domain. They are free! It's up to you if you want to download illegal ones.

Sure it's a fine line, if someone posted a message asking where to download a ROM I'm sure Arikado would delete it! If you noticed all of the post on this forum pertain to the emulators themselves and not illegal distribution of copyrighted material.

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scanff
@swirleydude

A lot of the "Roms" people play are in the public domain. They are free! It's up to you if you want to download illegal ones.

Sure it's a fine line, if someone posted a message asking where to download a ROM I'm sure Arikado would delete it! If you noticed all of the post on this forum pertain to the emulators themselves and not illegal distribution of copyrighted material.

Come on, you know that's not true. Anyone other than myself I know who has ever used an emulator has torrented every release for a particular console and then just had a huge list to play. I know no one who has ever downloaded a homebrew ROM for a console they dont own and played it in an emulator. Personally, I generally avoid emulators. I have used a DS one on my computer to try and find action replay codes (didnt really work very well) and have used a GameBiy Colour one on my DS to play Super Mario Bros Deluxe, but i rarely use them anymore.

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swirleydude

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Arikado
Emulation is a science. Look at the two years it took the Wii64 team to develop Wii64! An ISO loader is 20 lines of original code combined with the work of other people (including Nintendo). It took marcan 4 hours to write one.

Emulation is an art. Emulator authors must have a perfect understanding of the emulated console architecture and that of the target platform. A monkey (ie: No architecture/hardware/low-level knowledge required) could write an ISO loader (and they have).

Whatever helps you sleep at night. The fact still remains that both are to different means to the same end, run code you didn't pay for. Code that someone slaved over and the proceeds from pay for their lively hood, even if it is just their retirement now. Regardless as to whether you are using your own code to run someone else's or their own. It's just a difference of byte arrays and processor cycles versus circuit boards and resistors.

Since when are emulators programmed intetnionally for piracy? And since when do programmer's get paid for games they wrote 10+ years ago?

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swirlydude

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Arikado
But I get what you're saying, the core "piracy" concept is still the same. But riddle me this: Pirated "modern" games are putting people out of business. Are pirated "retro" games? Hell no.

So the people that collect and recompile the code for retro games for use in Virtual Console, Xbox Arcade, and Playstation Network don't deserve to be payed? Or are they just a monkey (ie: No architecture/hardware/low-level knowledge required) with a toolkit?

No, the people who make the VC emulators are hardware guru's with exception asm coding abilities. For that reason (among many others of course) we won't permit illegal WAD discussion.

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SifJar
Come on, you know that's not true.

I beg to differ. There is a homebrew SDK available for probably any console you can think of. Emulators let homebrew devs test and release code without actually owning the console they are writing for. For example, I've been dabbling in writing DS homebrew and testing it on DeSmuME despite that I actually don't own any hardware to let me test my work on the actual console. I've never used DeSmuME for anything else. My friends and I have also done this with a variety of other console emulators and homebrew SDKs (particularly the Intellivision).

Well I'd hardly say that that is true for "a lot of the roms people play". Most people use emulators to play pirated ROMs. I am not against emulators, nor am I defending them. I agree they CAN be used for homebrew purposes, but I am stating the fact that in most cases they are not. I will take no further part in this argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 08:04PM by SifJar.

@SifJar - Like I said it's up to the individual to download illegal roms. I personally stick to the older games and they are in the public domain, like the C64.

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SifJar
Well I'd hardly say that that is true for "a lot of the roms people play". Most people use emulators to play pirated ROMs. I am not against emulators, nor am I defending them. I agree they CAN be used for homebrew purposes, but I am stating the fact that in most cases they are not. I will take no further part in this argument.

I can accept that. I was only trying to point out that there are legitimate purposes for emulators that do not exist for ISO loaders or warez installers.

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Arikado
I was only trying to point out that there are legitimate purposes for emulators that do not exist for ISO loaders or warez installers.

But if hacker can already crack the data format of the Wii discs to extract banners, etc. couldn't the process be done in reverse to create homebrew iso's just like homebrew roms? Users could download large homebrew apps that require complex folder structure as an Iso and burn it to a disc, then launch it with an Iso loader.

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Arikado
No, the people who make the VC emulators are hardware guru's with exception asm coding abilities. For that reason (among many others of course) we won't permit illegal WAD discussion.

So then aren't you helping people rip them off by providing a method to illegally play SMB3 rather than through the VC?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 08:41PM by swirleydude.

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swirleydude

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Arikado
I was only trying to point out that there are legitimate purposes for emulators that do not exist for ISO loaders or warez installers.

But if hacker can already crack the data format of the Wii discs to extract banners, etc. couldn't the process be done in reverse to create homebrew iso's just like homebrew roms? Users could download large homebrew apps that require complex folder structure as an Iso and burn it to a disc, then launch it with an Iso loader.

No, because the ISO loader's require the presence of functions from Nintendo's SDK. If said functions were in homebrew, said homebrew would be illegal.

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swirlydude

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Arikado
No, the people who make the VC emulators are hardware guru's with exception asm coding abilities. For that reason (among many others of course) we won't permit illegal WAD discussion.

So then aren't you helping people rip them off by providing a method to illegally play SMB3 rather than through the VC?

1) The same could be said of already existing emulators on different platforms. Thus, we are not hurting nor helping anyone.
2) It can be done in entirely legal ways. The emulator itself is legal and you can legally obtain an SMB3 ROM.

Yeah I knew that first one was a stretch, but I have never heard of a legal way to get roms. (Except maybe some Mame roms but then I thought it looked iffy)

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swirleydude
Yeah I knew that first one was a stretch, but I have never heard of a legal way to get roms. (Except maybe some Mame roms but then I thought it looked iffy)

Simply make them yourself (get some hardware that will connect to the ROM pins and output the ROM contents onto your PC, save the contents with the proper extension - .nes for example). Also, there are homebrew ROMs (made with a homebrew SDK) that are legal to download for free. NOTE: This is not the same thing as hacked ROMs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 09:01PM by Arikado.

Considering I never sell my consoles and that I prefer using the original controllers for games, if I had a cartridge for a game I'd just throw it in it's proper system.

Hope there's no hard feelings, I'm not trying to have any rules changed. I'm just bored at work and felt like starting a debate. :)

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Arikado

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swirleydude
Yeah I knew that first one was a stretch, but I have never heard of a legal way to get roms. (Except maybe some Mame roms but then I thought it looked iffy)

Simply make them yourself (get some hardware that will connect to the ROM pins and output the ROM contents onto your PC, save the contents with the proper extension - .nes for example). Also, there are homebrew ROMs (made with a homebrew SDK) that are legal to download for free. NOTE: This is not the same thing as hacked ROMs.

so what you are saying means i have to own the game cartridge to have a rom, that is the legal way?
Id prefer to have my gb/gbc/whatever with all the cartridges instead

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swirleydude
Hope there's no hard feelings, I'm not trying to have any rules changed. I'm just bored at work and felt like starting a debate. :)

No, it's fine. I actually enjoy intellectual debate :-) (If I didn't, I would've let others respond)

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darklink
so what you are saying means i have to own the game cartridge to have a rom, that is the legal way?

Laws are different for each country and said country's state/province that you reside in. To find out what it takes for you to legally obtain a ROM, research the laws specific to where you live. Generally though, you need to own the original to be able to have a copy of the ROM.

[www.nintendo.com]

That explains lots of things (for people in the US....)

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WaxyPumpkin72
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

That explains lots of things (for people in the US....)

Too bad it's terribly biased. Not once do they mention that it is possible to make your own "Nintendo ROM" and thus legally have one. (Read their description of "What is an emulator" to see what I mean)

They do say that you can make a backup of your games though:

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Nintendo Legal Site
The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic.

Missed that - thanks :-)

Bias though: "very narrow limitation"
Two adverbs - yikes :O