Drop Wii64, Port Project64 Instead

Seriously, this is really a lost case: first you recognize you were wrong to doubt them and then you start again with those graphic plugin stuff.

You do realize those plugins are specifically designed to work with computers graphic cards and API, do you ? Don't' you still understand that the developpers of Wii64 know exactly what they are doing, that they obviously already know about the different N64 plugins that exist out there and that they probably ported gl64 for a good reason ?

To make it simple, no, Glide64 won't work "out of the box" with the Wii graphic hardware and no, the fact it is from "ATI graphics" does not make anything "easier", sorry to be a little harsh but, contrary to what you seem to think, you have absolutely no idea about what you are speaking...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2009 01:44PM by ekeeke.

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!! Wii64 works great now it even has capability to save to an actual gamecube memory card and there needs to be an idea for exchanging (swapping) the wii64 logo save for a gamecube save size image.gif and the wii64 has small bugs and they need to be fixed and you know how there is texture packs for certain games like zelda oot texture pack option needs to be added!

Quote
ekeeke
You do realize those plugins are specifically designed to work with computers graphic cards and API, do you ? Don't' you still understand that the developpers of Wii64 know exactly what they are doing, that they obviously already know about the different N64 plugins that exist out there and that they probably ported gl64 for a good reason ?

Glide64 and glN64 were designed for computers as it is a *.dll. I'm refering to the source code, not the compiled *.dll file!

If there is one thing I know about coding and that is anything is possible. You completely rule out something just because the code was designed to be compiled for a computer. It can be ported. All someone needs to do is take the time and convert the codes so that way it can run on a different platform.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2009 02:30AM by wildgoosespeeder.

I'm very sorry to disappoint you but no, not everything is possible with coding: for example, it is not possible to achieve the same speed with software by replicating what hardware does. This is the main reason you will never see some projects happen, because good developpers know they are just losing their time doing something worthless, no matter how much you hope for that to happen... now, Glide64 probably use some video hardware features that were not possible to replicate with the Wii hardware, that's all. What would be the point of having a better graphical plugin running at 10fps ? Better and smarter solutions are generally to fix the bugs in your already working plugin...

Anyway, asking to drop Gl64 because Glide64 runs much better on your PC is exactly like asking to drop this "crappy" Mupen64 and port Project64 instead: you are not just only disrespectful to the coder's gigantic work but are also completely dismissing (again) the fact that the Wii and your PC use two complely different architecture & hardware, and that the coders probably know better than you what they can or cannot do to improve their work...

This thread is a matter of opinion. The developers don't have to switch now. This is why this thread is in the ideas board. I don't know where you get off saying this thread disrespects the coders. This is more of a suggestion than it is criticism. Also you tend to underestimate what the Wii can do. What you said was is that if the developers decide to switch to Glide64 that the games will run at around 10fps. How come Wii games can run at 60fps? Those graphics are way better. What about VC N64 games? I know that the VC has a very limited selection but those games can run a full 60fps too. What makes you say that a Wii N64 emulator can't run at the same speed as a N64 VC game?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2009 07:18PM by wildgoosespeeder.

Quote

I don't know where you get off saying this thread disrespects the coders. T

This is disrespectful in the way you are asking developpers to drop something they put a lot of time/effort in because it does not meet your PC emulation standard and you persist at thinking you know better what they should do, when you obviously have no clue about programming...

Quote

How come Wii games can run at 60fps? Those graphics are way better.

We are speaking about emulation here, don't you know what that means ? Wii games do not use N64 "graphic plugins", they use graphic engines specifically developped for the Wii hardware, this is totally unrelated.

Quote

What about VC N64 games? I know that the VC has a very limited selection but those games can run a full 60fps too

Those are heavily optimized emulators who are dedicated to run a specific game, most probaly using some kind of hacks or pre-rendered texture tricks to get full speed. Not even considering they are coded by a professionnal team who probably knows much more about Wii/N64 hardware than everybody else...

Quote

What makes you say that a Wii N64 emulator can't run at the same speed as a N64 VC game?

Lol, I never said such things (I'm quite sure Wii64 will be able to run the majority of games fullspeed and that graphic bugs will be fixed), only that:

1) to achieve fullspeed emulation, you need a major rewrite of the graphic renderer to use the Wii hardware as most as possible.

2) not everything is portable because of hardware differences (the Wii video hardware have no native support for OpenGL or Glide API, and plugins could very likely be using graphic cards features that are not supported on Wii)

3) the most you use software as a wrapper, the most it slowdowns the emulation core

4) there are probaly good reasons why they did not port Glide64 (I'm not even sure they are using a port of Gl64, probably a GX optimized renderer), better trust them on that too...

Seriously, I'm just trying to take some time explaining you why your suggestions are biased and totally unappropriate, now, if you cannot understand that , I'm definitively off...

Quote
ekeeke
This is disrespectful in the way you are asking developpers to drop something they put a lot of time/effort in because it does not meet your PC emulation standard and you persist at thinking you know better what they should do, when you obviously have no clue about programming...

So I can't express my opinion in fear of offending the coders? A suggestion is not an insult, it's something to consider. Plus don't tell me what I do and don't know. That is more disrespectful than what you think me being disrespectful to the coders are.

Quote
ekeeke

Quote

How come Wii games can run at 60fps? Those graphics are way better.

We are speaking about emulation here, don't you know what that means ? Wii games do not use N64 "graphic plugins", they use graphic engines specifically developped for the Wii hardware, this is totally unrelated.

Quote

What about VC N64 games? I know that the VC has a very limited selection but those games can run a full 60fps too

Those are heavily optimized emulators who are dedicated to run a specific game, most probaly using some kind of hacks or pre-rendered texture tricks to get full speed. Not even considering they are coded by a professionnal team who probably knows much more about Wii/N64 hardware than everybody else...

I was trying to compare something that is faster and better in the present than what was available in the past. I was trying to counter your 10fps statement.

Quote
ekeeke

Quote

What makes you say that a Wii N64 emulator can't run at the same speed as a N64 VC game?

Lol, I never said such things

Sorry I meant if Wii64 ever uses Glide64 and your 10fps comment.

I understand hardware limitations and coding but my "anything is possible with coding" statement is that you can push codes to the limit of the hardware.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2009 09:23PM by wildgoosespeeder.

wildgoosespeeder, you are right and thank you for understanding my question. ekeeke, you need to calm down. We are not trying to insult the authors of the program in any way. We just want to offer ideas to improve this program. I understand that it is an insult to keep going on about trying to port P64 instead of M64, but we are not saying that anymore. I never said that at all anyway... And, seriously, you need to learn to spell words correctly. I mean, professionnal and unappropriate are not well-formed words. The words are professional and inappropriate. Anyway, we just want to know if the program could be modified and improved to support features we have seen and that we really liked in other places. So calm down already...

Quote
Hman360
wildgoosespeeder, you are right and thank you for understanding my question. ekeeke, you need to calm down. We are not trying to insult the authors of the program in any way. We just want to offer ideas to improve this program.

THANK YOU! I was really feeling scared on why would he pushing back so hard on something that is just an opinion being suggestive.

Quote
Hman360
I understand that it is an insult to keep going on about trying to port P64 instead of M64, but we are not saying that anymore.

I still feel as though Project64 should be ported because Mupen64 lacks a few things that Project64 supports. One of those things is GameShark.

Well ever since Wii64 alpha was replaced with Wii64 beta, I am less concerned about Project64 being ported anyway. I just hope that GameShark can be implemented in future releases of Wii64.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2009 11:23PM by wildgoosespeeder.

Oh snap!!! Teh n00bs are banning together!!! We're descending into a state of idiocracy...

Seriously. Hman360: Who are you to tell one of the gods of emulation to calm down? Maybe if you and your damn sleeping buddy weren't narrow minded know-nothings who shouldn't be allowed within 10 miles of a computer, then the computer scientists here wouldn't be frustrated.

(Sorry ekeeke, I cant help myself)

Hey, ekeeke was being disrespectful to me. You are the moderator Arikado! I would have expected better from you. I would have expected you to not promote ekeeke's behavior. Just because some knows loads more about Wii programming doesn't mean that they have the right to act like a jerk to those who know less. I don't know much about Wii programming but do understand computer programming. I read up on some of the Wii development tools and they use C++ so I assumed that all of what I said before in this topic could be applied.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2009 09:08AM by wildgoosespeeder.

Quote

I'm just saying why port Mupen64, a pathetic N64 emulator, and not Project64, the best N64 emulator out there?

Quote

The Wii64 I downloaded is a piece of crap. On the Homebrew Browser app it is rated 2/5. Doesn't that say something?

In my opinion, those are clearly disrespectful comments, that does not help in starting a polite and constructive discussion.

Quote

Only problem, why are they using the source code from glN64 to emulate the graphics? The graphics are looking bad on some of the games. Use Glide64 because I have a pretty decent graphics card on my laptop and the graphics are nearly perfect! Since the Wii uses ATI graphics, it would be wise to use Glide64.

Quote

That's when I noticed the graphics were bad in some games. Looked even more at the details of Wii64 and right there was the reason, glN64.

In my opinion (again), those comments are also disrespectful and presumptuous because they are insinuating devs don't know what they are doing and that YOU know better than them what would be "wiser" to do... when you obviously don't (and no, this is not a matter of opinion, this is fact, based on the content of your posts).

Now, being naive or not knowing much about Wii programming is certainly not a problem and off course don't desserve outrageous reactions but it becomes one when you keep questionning the work of others and ignoring people who try to explain why your suggestions are biased...

That's said, I'm certainly losing patience too easily when I see those kind of comments and I should probably not lose my time trying to explain people why they are wrong, but hey, this is internet after all ... I like to believe, naively, that explaining can bring better things than ignoring ;-)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2009 12:56PM by ekeeke.

Quote
wildgoosespeeder
Hey, ekeeke was being disrespectful to me. You are the moderator Arikado! I would have expected better from you. I would have expected you to not promote ekeeke's behavior. Just because some knows loads more about Wii programming doesn't mean that they have the right to act like a jerk to those who know less. I don't know much about Wii programming but do understand computer programming. I read up on some of the Wii development tools and they use C++ so I assumed that all of what I said before in this topic could be applied.

ekeeke has been more than generous in giving up his time to hold a conversation with you. He has given you extremely detailed, technical, answers and you keep throwing simpleton retorts at him such as 'Well... Anything's possible!!! You can't say no!!!'

But I digress, I've said nothing. This is ekeeke's debate, not my own (thank goodness - I have enough of those :-P)

Then, Hman360 had to jump in with literally the most insulting comment I've ever seen (anywhere actually) toward one of the few people in the world who actually know anything about actual emulation. After seeing your gushingly over joyous response to Hman360 though, I figured it would be appropriate if I made the same type of comment - but in ekeeke's favor instead.

The difference between you and ekeeke is that ekeeke had the merit to ignore my blatantly inappropriate comment. You, however, had the inability to ignore Hman360's comment and instead cheaply used it against ekeeke in an orgy of self-support. This simple happening can be a metaphor for a lot of things that have gone on in this topic.

This is my last post in this topic (even if Hman360 makes a hundred and two posts :-P ).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2009 04:40PM by Arikado.

It all boils down to this:

If you think something could be done better than the way it is currently done... THEN DO IT. PROVE IT. If you don't have the technical know-how to do that, then go learn! If you don't have time to learn or are too lazy to learn, then too bad, live with what you have. I think the majority of coders don't have a problem with a little constructive criticism (even from NON-Coders)... heck , that's how we improve our projects, but after a certain point, just shut up and enjoy the product you have.

I would have no problems with your arguments (and no one else would either) if you had started doing some coding and could show how what you are saying is true.

I know we don't need MORE people jumping into this argument, but lets just let it go. If you think it can be done better, come back when you have coded your own N64 emulator and can say "See, I told you"

Until then, stop "suggesting" something that obviously isn't going to be pursued. I don't think there was anything wrong with your "request" (this is the ideas and request forum) but at some point you have to stop fighting for it to be done by others and do it yourself.

-mdbrim (the elderly statesman)

Wii64 were already released, it's done, it's amazing, is still at the first beta, it's going to be even better, yadadadadada, some people don't know shit about coding, or about computers, maybe (you don't need to be a coder to be smart)

My sugestion: someone close this thread, please? It was stupid 2 months ago, and this doesn't changed at all.

Quote
ekeeke

Quote

I'm just saying why port Mupen64, a pathetic N64 emulator, and not Project64, the best N64 emulator out there?

Quote

The Wii64 I downloaded is a piece of crap. On the Homebrew Browser app it is rated 2/5. Doesn't that say something?

In my opinion, those are clearly disrespectful comments, that does not help in starting a polite and constructive discussion.

I do admit that those comments were blunt. Those comments were based on my feelings on the Wii64 alpha release. Ever since the Wii64 beta release, I drifted away from those kind of comments. I could not play any N64 games on the Wii64 alpha release so why did the developers release it? Don't release something that doesn't work quite yet. I know it's in its early prototyping stages so you can't expect much but completely unplayable? C'mon, they should have released Wii64 beta first and not second.

Quote
ekeeke

Quote

Only problem, why are they using the source code from glN64 to emulate the graphics? The graphics are looking bad on some of the games. Use Glide64 because I have a pretty decent graphics card on my laptop and the graphics are nearly perfect! Since the Wii uses ATI graphics, it would be wise to use Glide64.

Quote

That's when I noticed the graphics were bad in some games. Looked even more at the details of Wii64 and right there was the reason, glN64.

In my opinion (again), those comments are also disrespectful and presumptuous because they are insinuating devs don't know what they are doing and that YOU know better than them what would be "wiser" to do... when you obviously don't (and no, this is not a matter of opinion, this is fact, based on the content of your posts).

Hmm, an "offensive" suggestion? Jeez, I doubt the Wii64 developers wouldn't even think of it being insulting but rather informing since we are talking about the Glide64 'Napalm WX' Release 1 plug-in.

I doubt you even looked at the latest release dates of the plug-ins. Glide64 'Napalm WX' Release 1 August 20, 2009 and glN64 August 18, 2003. Just over six years difference. Both have the latest source code for their plug-ins. Maybe the Wii64 developers didn't look at Glide64 'Napalm WX' Release 1 source code. I don't know what they have and haven't done.

Quote
wildspeedgoose
I doubt you even looked at the latest release dates of the plug-ins. Glide64 'Napalm WX' Release 1 August 20, 2009 and glN64 August 18, 2003. Just over six years difference.

Try to understand, these are the release dates FOR THE PC VERSION SOURCE.
Are you aware of how different the "port" of GLN64 for Wii64 is from the original right now, how many improvents the Wii64 team made to it?

The main advantage of Glide64 over GLN64 is usabilty (for a PC app) and optimization (for a PC platform). None of them matters in Wii64 context.
In the other hand, GLN64 have the advantage of been simple, and flexible, which REALLY matters when you are porting it to another platform.

Well it still looks relatively the same. The PC graphical glitches still appear relatively the same as Wii64 graphical glitches. Still I know Wii64 is still in the prototyping stage.

Also simplicity doesn't mean good. Sometimes something more complicated can produce better results. I know the source for the plug-ins are optimized for PC but maybe for the more complex stuff to port you need way more time than with something simpler to get the desired result. That would mean much longer time between releases of Wii64 but sometimes that's what you have to do.

wildgoosespeeder
the Wii64 developers have been able to port a N64 emulator to the WIi which took them about 2 years because they had to rewrite huge parts to make it work. Don't you think that they considered every single plugin before starting to work? You need to rewrite huge parts of every gfx plugin anyway when you're porting it to the Wii so it doesn't really matter if some plugin is better/faster/... than some other plugin because you'll have to redo all that stuff anyway.
I'm just going to close this thread since this argument is pretty useless anyway.