Ideas I've been toying with

Here's some ideas I've had for homebrew applications that I may or may not code. Just thought I'd throw them out there...

1. WiiBASIC - A simple programming language/editor/interpreter which ran on the Wii, loading source off SD card, or typed using a USB Keyboard, and run directly from the system. Then maybe a WiiBASIC compiler to produce ELF/DOLs from WiiBASIC code?

2. Small Office-type suit - Simple word processor and spreadsheet applications.

3. WiiTree Gold - Based on the old DOS XTree Gold (and the newer ZTree Win) applications for browsing the various data stores on the Wii (eg. NAND FS, SD Card, Cube Mem cards, DVD drive etc.)

1 - No point to that. BASIC wouldn't easily accomplish what C++ already can.

2 - Do you know how hard it is to type on the Wii (unless you're using a usb keyboard)?

3 - I like it. Go for it.

1. Is there a C/C++ compiler/dev environment/debugger *on* the Wii?

2. Well the idea was based upon the USB keyboard... Anything else would just be daft :-)

2 - Thank goodness. Interesting idea if it can make and read html files as well. Would like to see it.

1) might be cool as you could then just program/debug etc all from the wii no pc needed... but kinda usless

2) txt-viewer is going to have write support at some point so a basic word processor is on the way.

3) sounds good :)

If C++ is faster then why does anyone ever fool around with BASIC? WiiBASIC would be a toy, obviously not a serious application maker. In fact you could do some pretty neat stuff with it if it was properly done, and maybe even get someone else interested in programming by showing them this. I say do it.
In fact I say do them all! (And yeah, a USB keyboard is necessary. But seriously folks, go to your local thrift shop and find an old dusty beige keyboard that happens to have a USB plug and buy it for 2$.)
One thing though, I think the last two should be built into each other. File browsing and text editing in general would make an extremely useful application.

Basic is much easier to learn than C++. Gamemaker is easier to learn than basic AND is relatively powerful!

And to anyone who thinks you can't make "real games" with GM: Have you ever even used it? It very flexible and even has a built-in programming language called GML for more advanced users. The registered version can do 3D and use DLL's to extend it. This means that GameMaker's only limit... is its dependence on Direct X.

So what's the moral of this story? Make a BASIC interpreter / GML interpreter for the Wii and you won't need to learn C++.

Depends how you define real games, I'd like to see someone make a game like ut3 or crysis in GameMaker ;)

I wish people would stop banging on about C++ being the only language for games. BlitzBasic and DarkBasic seem to sell very well

BASIC is a great language to start people off programming, and it can be immensely powerful. I was thinking of providing embedded functions such as-
GetWiimoteIRX(wiimoteNumber)
GetWiimoteIRY(wiimoteNumber)
LoadImage(fileName)
DrawImage(imageHandle, SourceRect, DestRect, Alpha, Rotation)

In fact, it is possible to implement *every* function available in C++ in BASIC.

The only reason why it might not be great for coding games/apps to start with, will be because the code will be interpreted. But as soon as a compiler is written, all that goes out the window, and your left with an ELF/DOL that you would be with C/C++.

Anyway, I'd prefer no more discussion of languages in this thread, only ideas/suggestions/comments directly relating to the 3 ideas posted. Thanks.

BASIC would be bad for the scene. Similar thing happened with lua on the PSP, because it was a fairly easy language to pick up, a lot of people started learning to program. I have no objection to this, but when things are easy to do, people often learn bad ways of doing things. To further this, the noobs were teaching even noober people ways of doing stuff that was horribly inefficient and there was a stream of crap make from lua that poured in the scene. I don't want to see the same thing happen with BASIC on the wii.

@WiiPhlex
Its already happening with C++: The Story of Rick and Schmid

consider this then, if it's happening with a language such as C++, what's going to happen if basic is supported? Programmers are much lazier these days (the newer ones that is) due to the additional power that modern hardware offers.

So true.

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WiiPhlex
Depends how you define real games, I'd like to see someone make a game like ut3 or crysis in GameMaker ;)

I would love to see any one person write UT3 in any language for free, without using any libraries (except maybe DirectX).
In any case, this should enlighten you...
[www.gamemakergames.com]

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WiiPhlex
BASIC would be bad for the scene. Similar thing happened with lua on the PSP

Hmmm, didn't Lua get released for the Wii?!... It's no longer listed on Wiibrew, but I definately saw it at one time.

What's so bad about getting people interested in Wii Homebrew anyway? Surely the more the merrier? Okay, you'll get some idiots who release some crap, that happens everywhere (As has already been pointed out, the Wii already has), but you could provide the first step to some talented young kid who could out-shine us all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2008 01:39PM by whodares.

the problem with people making games in BASIC is those who program effectiently and put in much more work with a language like C++ is that they may not get the credit they deserve. One thing that may require hundereads of lines in C++ may only take one horribly inefficent function call in BASIC, therefore, it is bad for the scene.

Lua was released on the wii yes, although it only has a very small library(s) for it and doesn't support much. What's so bad about getting people interested? Nothing. What's wrong with getting people who shouldn't be doing it? Everything. If people are serious about programming I suggest they learn a proper language, or if they learn a language such as BASIC (if it actually is one) or lua, then they should learn it properly before pumping their crap onto the internet and telling everyone how amazing they are then telling even noober noobs how to do stuff in a bad way.

So that's why it's bad for the scene.

As for UT3 ported with BASIC, it is currently written in C++ and DirectX9/10. DirectX as far as I'm aware is not supported on the wii. Considering that in C++ it's not very quick (8 render state changes per polygon I believe) then I don't think that it would run on BASIC at all. Then considering that a team with a huge budget and some of the best game programmers in the world were working on it... good luck to anyone who even attempts to do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2008 02:05PM by WiiPhlex.

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WiiPhlex
the problem with people making games in BASIC is those who program effectiently and put in much more work with a language like C++ is that they may not get the credit they deserve.

And that is due to C++ programmers "shunning" BASIC programmers...

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WiiPhlex
One thing that may require hundereads of lines in C++ may only take one horribly inefficent function call in BASIC, therefore, it is bad for the scene.

You're splitting hairs. An "inefficient" function call in BASIC is due to either -
1. The way the BASIC developer codes, or
2. The way the BASIC interpreter works.
Neither of these are a true reflection on BASIC, only on the people using it... Imagine if libogc was written badly, then all your C/C++ homebrew apps using it would perform badly, not because you're code was bad, but the library your code is built on. Same with BASIC, if you get an efficient interpreter/compiler, it'll run as fast and smooth as C/C++

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WiiPhlex
What's wrong with getting people who shouldn't be doing it? Everything.

And who are you to judge who should and shouldn't be doing it?

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WiiPhlex
If people are serious about programming I suggest they learn a proper language,

I suggest you learn assembler then... You do know there's no such thing as an "Object" when the CPU is ticking away, it's a data structure with pointers for Subroutines, which, wait... anybody can reproduce in any language (that supports custom datatypes)

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WiiPhlex
or if they learn a language such as BASIC (if it actually is one) or lua, then they should learn it properly before pumping their crap onto the internet and telling everyone how amazing they are then telling even noober noobs how to do stuff in a bad way.

I don't disagree with this statement, but couple of flaws -
1. Anybody can post crap on the internet, that's the biggest flaw with the internet as a whole.
2. New people learning from other new people is nothing new, and not limited BASIC or Lua

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WiiPhlex
As for UT3 ported with BASIC, it is currently written in C++ and DirectX9/10. DirectX as far as I'm aware is not supported on the wii. Considering that in C++ it's not very quick (8 render state changes per polygon I believe) then I don't think that it would run on BASIC at all. Then considering that a team with a huge budget and some of the best game programmers in the world were working on it... good luck to anyone who even attempts to do that.

I don't quite follow the "DirectX is not supported on the Wii" quote. What's that got to do with anything? I showed you a 3D game in GameMaker. Okay, it's not UT3, but it's a 3D game not written in C++! Which is my point.

Besides, somebody wrote an OpenGL wrapper for GX. If I wrote OpenGL (or even just directly GX) as the graphics interface for the BASIC language, the BASIC language would have access to the Wii's 3D hardware accelerated graphics.

Also, if UT3 isn't very quick, why would anybody want to play it anyway? I'd rather a quick fun game than one that "looks good, but plays bad"

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WiiPhlex
the problem with people making games in BASIC is those who program effectiently and put in much more work with a language like C++ is that they may not get the credit they deserve. One thing that may require hundereads of lines in C++ may only take one horribly inefficent function call in BASIC, therefore, it is bad for the scene.

Ah, the stench of elitism. If you're just into homebrew in order to show off your 1337 C++ skills you're doing it for the wrong reason. You do it to give something to the community, let others enjoy your work (users couldn't care less about what amazing programming feats you accomplished and only care about the end result; developers will give you the "credit you deserve" if you've done something worthy of noting). You don't do it to show off that you have the patience to use a language that doesn't provide utility functions for common scenarios. IMO anything that saves time is a good thing, but unfortunately it comes at the cost of performance. C++ isn't for the faint of heart, but that doesn't mean those people aren't creative enough to make good games if given more efficient tools to work with.

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WiiPhlex
To further this, the noobs were teaching even noober people ways of doing stuff that was horribly inefficient and there was a stream of crap make from lua that poured in the scene. I don't want to see the same thing happen with BASIC on the wii.

I'm just going to leave this here and remind people that you're teaching others to use libwiisprite.

Anyway, that's enough from me. Just don't judge people because they'll have it easier than you do. If someone makes a good, fun game in Basic, what the hell's so wrong about it? The crap streaming point is valid, but unavoidable and shouldn't deter anyone from making it.

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I think a Basic interpreter would be a great idea, for the obvious reason of letting people not willing to learn the headache that is C/C++ make decent games. I'm sure the speeds would be perfectly fine to make a full libwiisprite game, and maybe even GX too (although honestly, if you're going to get into 3D programming you'd mind as well learn C++ too). What'd be cool is if you could port Mono, thereby enabling Visual Basic 9 for the newbs to use and C# for me :P. It has a native PowerPC JIT compiler too, so it would be able to run even faster than an interpreter would. As a matter of fact, I might actually look further into it if you'd prefer to go with classic BASIC or build your own interpreter anyway.

As for idea #2, I don't see the advantage to it. We all have computers to make spreadsheets and write documents for us. A text editor can be handy for editing config files on-the-spot (DSOrganize is an amazing piece of DS homebrew for that alone), but that doesn't seem like what you're going for. Don't let me stop you though :)

#3: Sounds perfect. I don't know X/ZTree, but it sounds and looks extremely useful. I'd suggest that you build a (simple) text editor into it for the reasons stated above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2008 08:42PM by AerialX.

Those are both first person games. The registered version of gamemaker has limited 3d support(with the help of d3d) and one of the easiest 3d games to make with gamemaker is an FPS. So naturally, making that kind of game would be almost a piece of cake.

BASIC is a learning language. I still say that with all of the libraries and source available for C++ coders to work with, returning to BASIC would be a waste of time. Furthermore, I highly doubt that whodares could pull of getting BASIC programs to run on the Wii, so lets not get to upset over nothing.

On another subject, WiiPhlex I totally agree with you on keeping people from posting retarded programs (see the story of rick and schmid) onto wiibrew. While I wouldn't call them stupid (they did install devkitPPC and set up libogc afterall), its certainly best not to make things easier for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2008 01:20AM by Arikado.

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Arikado
BASIC is a learning language. I still say that with all of the libraries and source available for C++ coders to work with, returning to BASIC would be a waste of time. Furthermore, I highly doubt that whodares could pull of getting BASIC programs to run on the Wii, so lets not get to upset over nothing.

Whats wrong with people wanting to learn to learn programming? if someone starts with BASIC then moves up to C/C++ whats wrong with that? A version on the wii might be fun to fiddle with and it might produce some decent apps.
something like this could be a decent pet progect for someone. if you workd it correctly you might even be able to do it using the wiimote using an onscreen keyboard and auto-fill type features.

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Arikado
On another subject, WiiPhlex I totally agree with you on keeping people from posting retarded programs (see the story of rick and schmid) onto wiibrew. While I wouldn't call them stupid (they did install devkitPPC and set up libogc afterall), its certainly best not to make things easier for them.

I partially agree... people are allowed to be proud of their creations and want people to use and look at them, it also allows them to learn what people like/dislike about their work so they can change it for future programs.