Nintendo & Shop Channel

I couldn't really think of any place else to put this thread, but here goes...

Every time I get frustrated with Nintendo it invariably involves region protection. With the newish shop channel updates, using Any Region Changer to go to a different shop channel country to actually *PURCHASE* let's say a recently released, muscle-bound & ridiculous Japanese Wii Ware/arcade title (which will probably never be released anywhere else) "resets" your current shop channel data? Even your tickets???? That is just out-right malicious and stupid. How in the hell does that make any sense?

It seems to me that this sort of thing ENCOURAGES piracy as opposed to curbing it. I mean, maybe I don't understand fully as I'm pretty new to homebrew and computer programming in general, but it seems like in order to download and play a single Japanese/European WiiWare/VC title legitimately, you have to backup and restore, *illegitimately* mind you, every other piece of currently downloaded software in your region, IF you want to keep it that is.

What the fuck kind of sense does that make, Nintendo?

Please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood anything about the current shop channel updates and/or the functions of Any Region Changer, though. Honestly, I'm hoping that I'm wrong. :P



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2009 11:42PM by DevilRy.

As far as i know, you're right. i feel the exact same way. nintendo can be serious retards. i've been asking and looking around for a while now to figure out how to back up my own VC/WW games and reinstall them after i delete my shop account and change my region to japanese. then i could get SSB1!!! xD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2009 12:26AM by WaxyPumpkin72.

Well the Shop Channel won't delete your titles for trying to connect to a different region, it just won't let you connect with an existing account.

It is Nintendo's and the other publishers' decision to be "retarded", as you call it.
They have the right to make retarded decisions, as you and me have.

That does in no way justify to use piracy.

If you want to buy a Japanese WiiWare game, you might try a Japanese Wii.
(other companies (foe example: Microsoft and the XBox Live Marketplace) are even more restrictive about that)

Otherwise, speak with your wallet and your voice. It is your money that the companies want after all.

On the other hand, keep in mind, that Nintendo can't just allow you to download anything. Thos things are rather complex, and sometimes just "retarded" :D

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using Any Region Changer to go to a different shop channel country (...) "resets" your current shop channel data? Even your tickets????

No! You, as the user, have to hit the shop channel's reset button. Otherwise nothing happens: your wii stays locked to a shop and your tickets are left intact. Neither Nintendo nor ARC will "harm", if you do not press the right button.

"It is your money that the companies want after all"

Haha, agreed. :)

I wasn't aware that you yourself had to manually delete your own shop channel account in order to access a foreign one, but still...

Far be it from me to question Nintendo's "right" to make dumb/questionable decisions, but I'm just frustrated that they keep doing so in regards to region lockouts. I think this behavior/policy/treatment/whatever you want to call it also arguably contributes to piracy as opposed to restricting it. It certainly doesn't legitimize it in the eyes of the law, but it most definitely makes it more appealing to someone (like me) who wants to casually play import games without having to shell out hundreds of more dollars to buy foreign-region consoles that would only be used to play a handful of games.

I've been reading that people were using ARC to abuse exchange rates and pay less for Wii points in the Japanese region, so thanks, jerks. >:(



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2009 06:18AM by DevilRy.

Nintendo can't even protect the Wii from homebrew.........

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DevilRy
I think this behavior/policy/treatment/whatever you want to call it also arguably contributes to piracy as opposed to restricting it.

Did anybody from Nintendo (or the Media Industry) ever claim, it would restrict piracy?

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daniel_c_w
Did anybody from Nintendo (or the Media Industry) ever claim, it would restrict piracy?

[ap.nintendo.com]

Nintendo's been campaigning for stricter piracy laws for over two decades... (when HK and East Asian developers were making little yellow pirate Famicom cartridges) But besides what they actively participate in, their policies are apparent in their business model.

Despite this though, they continually make decisions that negatively affect their client and developer base, while not really doing anything to stop piracy on their consoles, other than really annoying their import gamer clients, and driving away indie developers that actually want to get paid for their work: see Gamasutra's Minimum Sales Threshold article.

Bureaucracy is bliss, I guess. :P

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DevilRy

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daniel_c_w
Did anybody from Nintendo (or the Media Industry) ever claim, it would restrict piracy?

[ap.nintendo.com]

At first glance, I do not see anything about regional protection on the page.
So what's the point?

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DevilRy
Despite this though, they continually make decisions that negatively affect their client and developer base,

And those are?

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DevilRy
and driving away indie developers that actually want to get paid for their work: see Gamasutra's Minimum Sales Threshold article.

I do not realy see, what that has to do with piracy and region protection, but I guess your argument is:
"This is a dumb decission"
Rigth?

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daniel_c_w
At first glance, I do not see anything about regional protection on the page.
So what's the point?

Um, that's exactly my point. You asked what Nintendo does about piracy and I provided an official link detailing their position on it. They never mention why they region lockout all their non-portable consoles, yet they do it *every* time. Ostensibly this falls under the banner of "anti-piracy" but really ends up being "anti-importer."

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daniel_c_w

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DevilRy
Despite this though, they continually make decisions that negatively affect their client and developer base,

And those are?

Reread the sentence directly following the one you quoted.

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daniel_c_w
I do not realy see, what that has to do with piracy and region protection, but I guess your argument is:
"This is a dumb decision"
Right?

From a developer's standpoint it makes little to no financial sense to develop anything for Nintendo unless they do something that somehow guarantees sales. This limits the quality and the quantity of legitimate titles for WiiWare and encourages developers to go elsewhere (like the iPhone), and royally screws the developer if there are consumers willing to pay for it and unable to do so because of Nintendo's own rules.

My original example explains this: I would love to buy Muscle Koushinkyoku and support the possibly unpaid developer, but the current shop channel changes prevent me from doing so. I also can't say that this hasn't encouraged me to investigate various illicit means of protecting the software I already bought and paid for. I haven't done it, but I am seriously considering it.

But essentially yes, my argument is "This is a dumb decision," but it really its more like a series of decisions, and they aren't so much dumb as they are frustrating and myopic.

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DevilRy

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daniel_c_w
At first glance, I do not see anything about regional protection on the page.
So what's the point?

Um, that's exactly my point. You asked what Nintendo does about piracy and I provided an official link detailing their position on it.

I asked: Did anybody from Nintendo (or the Media Industry) ever claim, it (region protection) would restrict piracy?

And it looks like, your answer is yes :D

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DevilRy
They never mention why they region lockout all their non-portable consoles, yet they do it *every* time.

I do not know, whether Nintendo ever stated it, but here is a list of 8 reasons from the (private!) blog of the Xbox 360's Manager for Germany: [www.dreisechzig.net]

Let me translate it for you (slightly abridged):

Eight (of even more) Reasons. Why Games sometimes need Regional Encoding

Every point from the following list happened at least once

1. The game has 2 different publishers for different countries
2. A piece of music was only licensed for a specific region
3. A sportsgame contains real teams, and the obtained license does not cover every region
4. The English translation found in the Japanese version is bad
5. religious or political contents, which are not accepted in some countries
6. A character has only four fingers in the western version and needs 5 for the Japanese version
7. A release date is moved back for a specific region to avoid a launch at the same time as competing (stellar) game
8. The game was only tested for 60hz mode (NTSC) and the publisher does not want to pay for the extra test (for 50hz (PAL))

Games from Microsoft Game Studios usually contain no regional code. For other games please talk to its publisher

END


Note: If anybody said, that these 8 points actually are a good reason, I would personally disagree in the most cases.

And if you look at the data structures on wiibrew, you can see that it is possible to create Wii disc games that run in all territories.

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DevilRy
Ostensibly this falls under the banner of "anti-piracy" but really ends up being "anti-importer."

What does "ostensibly" mean?

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DevilRy
From a developer's standpoint it makes little to no financial sense to develop anything for Nintendo unless they do something that somehow guarantees sales.

The developers and publishers, who develop for WiiWare knew about that, and they obviously think, it is worth the risk.

And from my limited point of view, I would say, that numbers in the below 10k are not really a risk)

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DevilRy
This limits the quality and the quantity of legitimate titles for WiiWare

Yes on the quantity, but how does it limit quality?

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DevilRy
and royally screws the developer if there are consumers willing to pay for it and unable to do so because of Nintendo's own rules.

My original example explains this: I would love to buy Muscle Koushinkyoku and support the possibly unpaid developer

I am 100% sure, it is not Nintendo's decision, to not publish the game in the rest of the world.
The developer and the publisher made that decision.

If I were wrong, there would be an uproar.

Nintendo only has a say in the release date.

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DevilRy
and they aren't so much dumb as they are frustrating

I can understand the frustration, at least a little bit.

But why is it only aimed at Nintendo?

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daniel_c_w
I asked: Did anybody from Nintendo (or the Media Industry) ever claim, it (region protection) would restrict piracy? And it looks like, your answer is yes :D

I misunderstood the wording of your question. I thought by "it" you meant Nintendo/"Media Industry." No, I don't think they ever out-right said they use region protection on their consoles in an effort to curb piracy, but there doesn't really seem to be any other logical reason, and they certainly aren't presenting us with one.

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daniel_c_w
Note: If anybody said, that these 8 points actually are a good reason, I would personally disagree in the most cases. And if you look at the data structures on wiibrew, you can see that it is possible to create Wii disc games that run in all territories.

Why quote the list if you disagree with most of it? I understand the reasoning behind region protection methods, I just don't understand region protection that (perhaps unintentionally) targets legitimate import gamers.

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daniel_c_w
What does "ostensibly" mean?

The adverbial form of "ostensible."

1. outwardly appearing as such; professed; pretended
2. apparent, evident, or conspicuous

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daniel_c_w
The developers and publishers, who develop for WiiWare knew about that, and they obviously think, it is worth the risk. And from my limited point of view, I would say, that numbers in the below 10k are not really a risk)

There are a lot less people developing for WiiWare because for many it's not worth the risk - is my point.

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daniel_c_w
Yes on the quantity, but how does it limit quality?

By proxy. Less titles means less appealing hardware.

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DevilRy
I am 100% sure, it is not Nintendo's decision, to not publish the game in the rest of the world.
The developer and the publisher made that decision. If I were wrong, there would be an uproar. Nintendo only has a say in the release date.

That has nothing to do with why I'm frustrated though. I couldn't care less if they decide to exclusively release it on the moon so long as I can use my hard earned cash to import it, and I SHOULD be able to do this without having to buy an entirely new console or wipe the one I already own.

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daniel_c_w
I can understand the frustration, at least a little bit. But why is it only aimed at Nintendo?

The Wii is the only current generation console I own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2009 09:23AM by DevilRy.

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DevilRy
Why quote the list if you disagree with most of it?

Why not? I am not arguing for myself, or my case here. I am just trying to bring in any usefull information I can find.

Otherwise the whole thing would be kinda one sided, and be useless and unfair would be the result

(and just because I do not agrre, does not mean, it is not valid or the reasoning for the people in charge)

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DevilRy
There are a lot less people developing for WiiWare because for many it's not worth the risk - is my point.

How do you tell? Are there developers who said, it is not worth the risk?

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DevilRy
By proxy. Less titles means less appealing hardware.

In general, yes. In the special case of video game history I am not sure.
Any thoughts / insight?

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DevilRy
and I SHOULD be able to do this without having to buy an entirely new console or wipe the one I already own.

Well, how else would you be able to do it? Usually, if we would not have homebrew and have access to all the reversed engineered data and the tools written by the other guys, the only option would be to use extra cash. That has always been the case.


On the other hand. Why not do some research and check, whether there are other ways.

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DevilRy

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daniel_c_w
I can understand the frustration, at least a little bit. But why is it only aimed at Nintendo?

The Wii is the only current generation console I own.

Maybe, but Nintendo is not the only one, who is responsible for your special situation.



In general, I hate that thinking of "us versus them", us versus the big companies.


Despite that, I think that every creator has the right to set the rules, und which his creation can be used, as long as the rulkes are not discriminating, or the creation important for society.

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daniel_c_w
(and just because I do not agrre, does not mean it is not valid or the reasoning for the people in charge)

I didn't say that it wasn't...? For the most part I have no problem with Nintendo, or whoever for that matter, protecting their bottom line. It's business 101.

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daniel_c_w
How do you tell? Are there developers who said, it is not worth the risk?

Yes, according to that Gamasutra article. Also the sudden drop off of Wiiware games not directly related to an established franchise.

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daniel_c_w
In general, yes. In the special case of video game history I am not sure.
Any thoughts / insight?

It seems like kind of a foregone conclusion with Nintendo because they're so well established. Playstation 3 recently outsold the Wii in Japan though, so...

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daniel_c_w
Well, how else would you be able to do it? Usually, if we would not have homebrew and have access to all the reversed engineered data and the tools written by the other guys, the only option would be to use extra cash. That has always been the case.

Prior to the Shop Channel changes, ACR would have worked fine for what I needed it to do. I've always been dependent on softmods, modchips, and various work-arounds to play import games, but my point is I don't see any reason why I should have to be. Let's say I legitimately bought a certain import game, why do I have to go through many of the self-same methods that pirates use to play warez, just to play a game I actually paid for?

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daniel_c_w
On the other hand. Why not do some research and check, whether there are other ways.

Oh, I KNOW there are other ways to get what I want, but as near as I can tell, every other method constitutes some form of software piracy... Though it seems a mostly grey area to me, whether or not you give up your ownership rights to downloaded software, I'd have to reread the disclaimer that appears before you fully delete your shop channel account just to be sure.

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daniel_c_w
Maybe, but Nintendo is not the only one, who is responsible for your special situation.

In general, I hate that thinking of "us versus them", us versus the big companies.

Despite that, I think that every creator has the right to set the rules, und which his creation can be used, as long as the rulkes are not discriminating, or the creation important for society.

Maybe they aren't solely responsible, but ultimately though it's in their hands. I don't like thinking antagonistically either, and I hardly do in general. Just look under my tv: Super Nintendo, NES, Famicom, Wii, and next to it in a bookcase, my DS and about 50 or so Nintendo games... But I do feel like these new rules/shop channel updates unfairly discriminate against me (and fellow import gamers), maybe unintentionally, but they do.

Sorry for the late answer:

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DevilRy

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daniel_c_w
How do you tell? Are there developers who said, it is not worth the risk?

Yes, according to that Gamasutra article. Also the sudden drop off of Wiiware games not directly related to an established franchise.

Unfortunately Gamasutra did not name any developer who did, but I guess they are not lying or something like that.
Or loss, maybe.


I did not notice any notable drop of franchise-independent games. I'll keep an eye on that.

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DevilRy
It seems like kind of a foregone conclusion with Nintendo because they're so well established. Playstation 3 recently outsold the Wii in Japan though, so...

To be honest, I do not realy understand, what you are trying to say.

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DevilRy
Let's say I legitimately bought a certain import game, why do I have to go through many of the self-same methods that pirates use to play warez, just to play a game I actually paid for?

Because the developers and/or the publishers want it that way and Nintendo build their devices to follow suit.
If you do not want to support the idea at all, you shouldn't buy a product from any company, that uses region protection.

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DevilRy
Maybe they aren't solely responsible, but ultimately though it's in their hands.

Maybe, I am not sure about that.

Sony set a good example.




When I said "usually" earlier, I was thinking about the old days. If you wanted to play import games on your old consoles, you often had to modify the hardware. You know, before downloadable games and software region protection.

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DevilRy
I don't like thinking antagonistically either, and I hardly do in general. Just look under my tv: Super Nintendo, NES, Famicom, Wii, and next to it in a bookcase, my DS and about 50 or so Nintendo games...

An NES and a Famicom? That's cool :D

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DevilRy
But I do feel like these new rules/shop channel updates unfairly discriminate against me (and fellow import gamers), maybe unintentionally, but they do.

Yes, in a way they do, unfortunately.

And to build a bridge back to the beginning, that does not condone piracy, at least from a law standpoint.

In my moral point of view, I would say you should try/do whatever is necessary as long as you are willing to pay.

Did anyone else notice Mario in the [ap.nintendo.com] link looks so...righteous? :-P

Lol, he looks determined/righteous!! haha

He's our saviiour

haha!!