emulators form of piracy?

i understand you guys taking a stand against piracy very noble. i remember reading somewhere that 99.98% of backup users are pirates. which brings me to my post, you guys are kidding yoursslves if you think that the users of emulators have a lower ratio of pirates than do usb loaders. so my question is why allow emulators to even be discused if piracy is your number 1 enemy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 05:29AM by Robert.

Emulators are perfectly legal and usually made just to test the developers skills. As you must know, discussion of ROMs and where to find them is strictly prohibited. There are also 100% legal homebrew ROMs for many of the old consoles which are allowed. So to answer your question, emulators are allowed because they don't promote piracy themselves and because coding an emulator requires skill and knowledge whereas backup/usb loaders use modified IOSes that were already made and run games for the system that they are on rather than a different console or OS.

I generally do not have a problem with the rules here, but I do want to share my 2 cents.

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bg4545
Emulators are perfectly legal...

USB loaders are perfectly legal, as long as you own the game you are loading. Emulators are also only legal if you own the game AND the system you are emulating. Obviously users of USB loaders own a Wii.

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bg4545
...emulators are allowed...because coding an emulator requires skill and knowledge...

So if something is easy to code, it should not be allowed? That's ridiculous.

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winmaster
USB loaders are perfectly legal, as long as you own the game you are loading. Emulators are also only legal if you own the game AND the system you are emulating. Obviously users of USB loaders own a Wii.

I do believe you are INCORRECT about the whole "system" part. Perhaps it comes down to that in the case of BIOS (since the bios are IN the system) but not otherwise.

And the other case for emulators is - Public Domain ROMs, they at least have that claim to back up their justifiability, whereas there is no Public Domain games for the wii that would require a backup loader

In the case of loaders, all that stuff, WHY do people even come here for that advice?
Isn't there some forums or websites where the creators of these backup loaders can answer questions?

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winmaster

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bg4545
...emulators are allowed...because coding an emulator requires skill and knowledge...

So if something is easy to code, it should not be allowed? That's ridiculous.

I believe this is just a bad choice of wording/bias in this case

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winmaster

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bg4545
Emulators are perfectly legal...

USB loaders are perfectly legal, as long as you own the game you are loading. Emulators are also only legal if you own the game AND the system you are emulating. Obviously users of USB loaders own a Wii.

Yes, USB loaders are legal themselves, but in some countries it is still illegal to backup your games regardless of whether you own them or not. Since the Wii is a current generation console, piracy related apps are treated more strictly (with regard to Nintendo and WiiBrew alike).

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winmaster

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bg4545
...emulators are allowed...because coding an emulator requires skill and knowledge...

So if something is easy to code, it should not be allowed? That's ridiculous.

Not because it's easy to code, but because backup loaders are made to get around the Wii's copy protection. They are not trying to emulate another console, they are using the Wii software.

You are completely right that the vast majority of the time, emulators are used to run illegally obtained ROMs (according US laws, anyway). I would even guess that ROMs are pirated a greater percentage of the time than wii games are. After all, it is easy to make a copy of a wii game that you own, but it is a pain to download one. On the other hand, it is easy to download most ROMs (after all, they are much smaller); however, most people don't even have the necessary equipment to copy a ROM.

One could (possibly accurately) believe that by supporting emulators, WiiBrew is indirectly supporting piracy of ROMs. However, keep in mind that making an emulator is far more effort than making a warez launcher. I assure you that nobody is making emulators just so that they can pirate ROMs. It would be far too much effort. I can't say the same thing about warez launchers.

Furthermore, consider the amount of damage emulators cause to video game companies. Despite Nintendo's claims to the contrary, ROM piracy costs them next to nothing, especially compared to the cost of piracy of their current games. After all, in practically all cases, the games run through emulators are not being sold anymore. This doesn't necessarily make it right to pirate these games, but it essentially nullifies the cost to the makers of the games.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 09:53PM by jbc007.

I understand that pirating roms cost them less money than wii games (although a fair amont of those games are available via the wii shop channel). It wasn't the cost to nintendo I was questioning, rather it was the stand that wiibrew takes on piracy. Usually if something even smells like its used for piracy its not allowed. To me emulators seem to be an exception to the rule

Emulators are an exception mainly because it is more true to the point of homebrew. Coders get to test their skills and develop for fun rather than how it is with backup loaders which are made for "convenience" or "protecting discs" or "dvd drive lasers" or whatever excuse people use to justify them.

Still, it is somewhat inconsistent. For a long time, all custom channels other than the Homebrew Channel used Nintendo's banner code. For this reason, discussion of custom channels was forbidden until the release of CustomizeMii (there were later a few exceptions, since legal custom channels became possible somewhat before CustomizeMii). Discussion of other system files that are not/cannot be downloaded from NUS by the user (IOS 16 was one example) is also not allowed. I don't suggest that we support such things, but we have to consider the facts. Pirating banners and IOSes will never cost Nintendo even the smallest amount of money; whereas pirating ROMs (most of the time, using an emulator really does mean pirating ROMs) does cost Nintendo something (lost sales of Virtual Console games, for example).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2010 12:59AM by jbc007.

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LinkSlayer64

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winmaster
USB loaders are perfectly legal, as long as you own the game you are loading. Emulators are also only legal if you own the game AND the system you are emulating. Obviously users of USB loaders own a Wii.

I do believe you are INCORRECT about the whole "system" part. Perhaps it comes down to that in the case of BIOS (since the bios are IN the system) but not otherwise.

I just looked up where I read that and I think I'm probably wrong. I thought a certain amount of code from the original console was required to run the game. Didn't early Nintendo games check the system's integrity? Or was it only the console checking the game?

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LinkSlayer64
In the case of loaders, all that stuff, WHY do people even come here for that advice?
Isn't there some forums or websites where the creators of these backup loaders can answer questions?

I honestly don't think so. Have you ever googled USB loaders? The stuff that comes up is unreadable due to bad grammar at its best. If I had a piracy related question, I think I'd ask it here in the hopes that someone would PM me with an answer before I got banned. That would be better than trying to get a decent answer from a site like GBAFail.

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winmaster
I just looked up where I read that and I think I'm probably wrong. I thought a certain amount of code from the original console was required to run the game. Didn't early Nintendo games check the system's integrity? Or was it only the console checking the game?

No, it was the console, and as for the code, that code required is called the bios. I think moreover developers of emulators need to understand how a system processed... I don't know all the logistics.
But my proof for the consoles, the NES had a notorious lockout chip, which checked to make sure the game was licensed by nintendo or something, and if it went faulty, you would get a multi-colored flashing screen (not the only cause of said screen btw) I had to break pin #8 on my NES because this happened to me, and the thing worked better again.

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LinkSlayer64

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winmaster
I just looked up where I read that and I think I'm probably wrong. I thought a certain amount of code from the original console was required to run the game. Didn't early Nintendo games check the system's integrity? Or was it only the console checking the game?

No, it was the console, and as for the code, that code required is called the bios. I think moreover developers of emulators need to understand how a system processed... I don't know all the logistics.
But my proof for the consoles, the NES had a notorious lockout chip, which checked to make sure the game was licensed by nintendo or something, and if it went faulty, you would get a multi-colored flashing screen (not the only cause of said screen btw) I had to break pin #8 on my NES because this happened to me, and the thing worked better again.

So it is possible to write an emulator using 100% original code?

On a side note, I feel your blinking screen pain. I've found that the best way to combat it is to completely disassemble the NES, clean all of the connectors on the mainboard, bend the pins on the 72 pin connector out more, and then take apart the games and clean the connectors on those too.

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winmaster
So it is possible to write an emulator using 100% original code?

Well, to the most part, the code is original, the programmers only deduce how the consoles work, then write the code that emulates the functions of the consoles

and I only needed to clean and rebend the pins, and snip that pin. ( snapped pin on one of the NES's, I got two, other was fine)

Nice point you brought up here Robert. I bet you think it's original.

What it boils down to is this:

Making a "backup loader" is excessively simple and really doesn't require that much knowledge of the Wii's hardware. Even a USB loader could be made in less than six hours (which is a really small amount of time in programming) by any competent programmer. Furthermore, these programs are used exclusively for the illegal use of brand new titles with companies betting their entire future on these titles succeeding.

Emulators are very difficult to create. To make one requires that you have an extensive knowledge of the hardware of both the system you are emulating and the system you are emulating it on. It can take over a year of hard, dedicated work to develop an emulator (I of all people certainly know ;) ). Furthermore, although emulators are used piracy (although much more less commonly then "backup" loaders), they are used to play older games which companies no longer profit from. Sure, at worst, you're hurting the sales of a re-release (virtual console titles for example) but companies can't possibly be expecting much money from re-releases anyways (the original developer's usually don't even get a small slice of those minimal profits by the way).

What I'm trying to show is that there is in fact a significant divide between emulation and, well, modern-day piracy. To this end, it is easy to justify WiiBrew's policy of supporting emulators meanwhile not supporting "backup" loaders. It may not be the best set of rules; But they are rules. And much like the divide between emulators and "backup" loaders - these rules divide us from the rest of the Internet. This is why most people prefer the WiiBrew Forums to any other Wii homebrew discussion forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2010 03:11PM by Arikado.