Should WAD discussion be allowed?

This kinda continues off of the closed topic started by Dan Aykroyd about whether HBC uses Nintendo code, but is more general.

The rules state that:
- Information about how to install or make pirated copies of downloadable Wii content.

...is a banned topic. However, WADs come in many forms, including channel versions of emulators, which would be perfectly legal save for any possible copyrighted Nintendo or otherwise code used in their banners, which often is only there because there is no fully legal alternative released at the moment.

In its widest sense, the rule above would indeed block discussion of anything to do with WADs outside of HBC since at the moment they can't be legally created. Perhaps this technicality is something that was intended by the mods here... though if that's the case, they should IMHO just say "WAD and channel manipulation discussion is banned." That said, I don't think that would ultimately be a good idea.

WAD files are just a container. Simply because they can be used for piracy doesn't mean that they will be by everyone here. What if someone were to find a way to remove the executable from a WAD and make it a program in the Homebrew Channel? Would we then need to ban all discussion about ELFs and DOLs?

Again, I understand the wish for the scene to be seen as separate from piracy. If someone explicitly states that they want to do something illegal, by all means, close the topic and tell them why. But while I know that there is a connection between WADs and piracy usually, IMHO it's about on the same level as emulators and piracy, in that a lot of people use them for piracy but the actual program itself is not illegal (save for the previously discussed banner issues).

Thoughts?

I think that it should be aloud, as long as it doesn't involve the Backup Loader Channel and installing VC/Wiiware WADS. Also, I think ROM injection should be aloud, so long as the person(s) doing it already own the game or a form of it.

Why does everyone fail at these forums? This does not belong in Homebrew General. Moving it!

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Spoom
This kinda continues off of the closed topic started by Dan Aykroyd about whether HBC uses Nintendo code, but is more general.

The rules state that:
- Information about how to install or make pirated copies of downloadable Wii content.

...is a banned topic. However, WADs come in many forms, including channel versions of emulators, which would be perfectly legal save for any possible copyrighted Nintendo or otherwise code used in their banners, which often is only there because there is no fully legal alternative released at the moment.

Premise 1: "WADs are only illegal if there is copyrighted content involved."
Premise 2: "There is because there is no way to make home-made Channel WADs without using copyrighted content."
(From 1 & 2) Premise 3: "Home-made channel WADs can only exist using copyrighted content illegally"

I hope I have summarized your premises well. Premise two misses one case where you create all the code to make a full channel, but for 99% of people interested in this, that is not an option.
So, I will agree with your premises.

However, your conclusion does not follow.
Your Conclusion: "We should be able to discuss Home-Made chnanel WADs"
Summarized in a sentence, "Home-made channel WADs can only exist using copyrighted content illegally, so we should be able to discuss them."

You're missing an important premise, from higher up in the forum's rules:
Premise 4: "Discussion of illegal usage of copyrighted content is not allowed."

A more proper conclusion is:
(From 3 & 4) Conclusion: "Discussion of home-made channel wads is not allowed"

"Home-made channel WADs can only exist using copyrighted content illegally and discussion of illegal usage of copyrighted content is not allowed, therefore discussion of home-made channel wads is not allowed."

Your premise is true, but the conclusion does not follow.

A method of doing something is not legitimized because it is the only method.
What's more, there are legitimate ways to accomplish this task, although they would require more work. Being "easier" also does not legitimize an action.

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In its widest sense, the rule above would indeed block discussion of anything to do with WADs outside of HBC since at the moment they can't be legally created. Perhaps this technicality is something that was intended by the mods here... though if that's the case, they should IMHO just say "WAD and channel manipulation discussion is banned." That said, I don't think that would ultimately be a good idea.

The rule you quoted was just one example in a list headed with "This includes, but is not limited to." If you read the paragraph before that, you will realize that "Posts that inform, support, or request information from others members on matters of copyright infringement or copy protection (DRM) circumvention are prohibited."

The rule blocks anything to do with WADs that is illegal. That is that.

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WAD files are just a container. Simply because they can be used for piracy doesn't mean that they will be by everyone here. What if someone were to find a way to remove the executable from a WAD and make it a program in the Homebrew Channel? Would we then need to ban all discussion about ELFs and DOLs?

No. Frankly, if you want to extract files from your WADs and run them in the homebrew channel, there's no real problem. Menuloader has done this in the past. However, the only things distributed in WAD format are the Homebrew Channel and System Menu/IOS updates. All other WADs I'm aware of have been illegally created--once again ruling them out. And there wouldn't be a simple way to just convert a multiple-content WAD to some sort of executable that will magically pull everything from a binary or the SD card. As you said, WADs are just a container--there's no standard for what's inside.

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Again, I understand the wish for the scene to be seen as separate from piracy. If someone explicitly states that they want to do something illegal, by all means, close the topic and tell them why. But while I know that there is a connection between WADs and piracy usually, IMHO it's about on the same level as emulators and piracy, in that a lot of people use them for piracy but the actual program itself is not illegal (save for the previously discussed banner issues).

Thoughts?

Emulators are completely legal in themselves (besides places where reverse engineering is outlawed). They can only be used for illegal activities.

WADs are only containers--they are not outlawed in any form, by law or on this forum.
Illegally created WADs are outlawed. The only "legal" WADs are placed in the Homebrew Channel's installer, and on Wii game update discs. Neither of which are legal to distribute in any form.
Of course, we allow discussion of working with Disc update WADs and whatnot--as there are legal ways to extract them (Search "WUFE").

That should pretty much cover it. Feel free to shoot back with whatever you have. However, your first argument is pretty much shot. I'd give up on it.

Answer: It depends.

There are several reasons why we discourage or forbid discussion of a topic, be it on our blog, or on IRC or here in the forums.
* It's illegal or immoral to discuss; we already have a big, fat target painted on us for the work we do, and we try not to give Nintendo any extra leverage against us.
* It sets a bad example -- yes, we actually do use this place as a place to push our own agendas (don't make channels, unless you're really really sure of what you're doing)
* It distracts from useful, constructive conversation without contributing any value.

These are fuzzy rules, which means that there is a big gray zone of questions that e.g. I don't really like, but don't think are bad enough to put the effort into quashing. Also, bear in mind that there are several of us here doing moderation, and each of us has a slightly different idea of where the boundaries fall. We try to be consistent when possible, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of doing what I think is right.

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However, WADs come in many forms, including channel versions of emulators, which would be perfectly legal save for any possible copyrighted Nintendo or otherwise code used in their banners, which often is only there because there is no fully legal alternative released at the moment.

In its widest sense, the rule above would indeed block discussion of anything to do with WADs outside of HBC since at the moment they can't be legally created. Perhaps this technicality is something that was intended by the mods here... though if that's the case, they should IMHO just say "WAD and channel manipulation discussion is banned." That said, I don't think that would ultimately be a good idea.

No. Code comes in many forms, including source code, executable files, WADs, ISOs, raw chunks of content in NAND or downloaded from the Nintendo Update Service, etc. Around in these parts, we try to encourage people to learn how the Wii works, rather than lazily trying to e.g. inject a ROM into a VC game. So, code that comes as source code is super-cool! 100%-homebrew code that comes in executable files is still pretty cool. Poking at commercial WADs is dicey -- if you're doing it to understand how the system works, then as long as you're resposible and careful, that's cool. If you're doing it because you want to modify a channel to inject a ROM into it, well, that's sort-of-okay but not something I'm enthusiastic about. Passing around WADs of ripped WiiWare games is certainly NOT cool.

Making a channel is hard. Rilly Hard. It was by far the hardest part of the HBC, because the format is very complicated (more so than people following some random HOWTO understand) and if you're not very careful, you'll brick your Wii. We made the HBC in the hopes that nobody else would ever have to make another channel. If you still want to do it, fine, but it won't have anything to do with making a WAD -- really, you should be writing an installer program, and creating your own banner, and by the time you've gotten that far, you won't have any more questions about WADs.

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tona
Premise 2: "There is because there is no way to make home-made Channel WADs without using copyrighted content."

HBC did it, therefore the must be a way. No?

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bushing
We made the HBC in the hopes that nobody else would ever have to make another channel. If you still want to do it, fine, but it won't have anything to do with making a WAD -- really, you should be writing an installer program, and creating your own banner, and by the time you've gotten that far, you won't have any more questions about WADs.

Whoa, did I read that right? Can you make a channel without needing to make a WAD? Do you not need a WAD to install content? If that's the case, I'm not bothered about WADs ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2008 08:58PM by whodares.

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whodares
Whoa, did I read that right? Can you make a channel without needing to make a WAD? Do you not need a WAD to install content? If that's the case, I'm not bothered about WADs ;-)

That's entirely correct. The only reason we use a WAD built in to the installer for the homebrew channel is because we already had a handy dandy WAD packing tool from our previous update disc experiments - and even then, we use heavily customized install code and modify the WAD dynamically, so it isn't a standard WAD installer by any means. WADs are NEVER installed on the Wii. They're broken up (unpacked!) and THEN installed. WADs are not only not a requirement for installing stuff on the Wii, they aren't even usable by themselves. Every single "WAD installer" out there *unpacks* the WAD before installing it. The Wii ONLY uses WADs to distribute updates on discs. Updates downloaded from the internet never turn into WAD format before being installed. Downloaded VC/WiIWare titles aren't WADs.

WAD just happens to be a convenient format for VC/WiiWare piracy, even though it's entirely not needed to install stuff. That's why we're so tired of seeing them discussed.

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tona
Premise 1: "WADs are only illegal if there is copyrighted content involved."
Premise 2: "There is because there is no way to make home-made Channel WADs without using copyrighted content."
(From 1 & 2) Premise 3: "Home-made channel WADs can only exist using copyrighted content illegally"

Unfortunately you have not summarized my premises correctly. You have made a straw man. Currently there is no way to make WADs or channels without using copyrighted content. I didn't say it was impossible; certainly, HBC does it at the moment, and I would imagine that someone else could, given sufficient time and skill, find the bug that allowed such channel manipulation to happen and create their own banner toolkit. Much of the rest of your argument hinges on this, which, as I mentioned above, is a technicality. What happens if and when BootMii and the banner tools are released?

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tona
The rule you quoted was just one example in a list headed with "This includes, but is not limited to." If you read the paragraph before that, you will realize that "Posts that inform, support, or request information from others members on matters of copyright infringement or copy protection (DRM) circumvention are prohibited."

(Emphasis added.) By this rule, just about every topic relating to the internals of the Wii on this forum is banned. What is encryption and signing on the Wii if not an attempt to prohibit copying and injection of code? And yet, there are dozens of programs out there that are allowing copying of savegames, data, and keys, way beyond what Nintendo has authorized to end users, all meticulously documented on the Wiki and discussed here. Now, I must note that I greatly respect what the homebrew community has done here, and generally don't agree with DRM or the DMCA in the first place. But it would seem that this rule is being selectively enforced at the mods' whims, basically whenever the word "WAD" is mentioned.

In case it was at all unclear, I am not suggesting any support of piracy here. I am suggesting that banning discussion of a technology simply because it can be a piracy enabler is futile.

Bushing, I agree with just about everything you said. I just find it annoying when a mod is like "NO WAD DISCUSSION PIRATE!" and immediately closes the topic when there is no such inference made to piracy in the user's actual post.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2008 09:33PM by Spoom.

Thanks guys for the clarification. I have some other questions, but I won't ask them here.

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Spoom
Unfortunately you have not summarized my premises correctly.

I must have misunderstood you. It sounded like you were suggesting that making your own channels was OK "save for some use of copyrighted code which is mostly done out of necessity."

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(Emphasis added.) By this rule, just about every topic relating to the internals of the Wii on this forum is banned. What is encryption and signing on the Wii if not an attempt to prohibit copying and injection of code? And yet, there are dozens of programs out there that are allowing copying of savegames, data, and keys, way beyond what Nintendo has authorized to end users, all meticulously documented on the Wiki and discussed here. Now, I must note that I greatly respect what the homebrew community has done here, and generally don't agree with DRM or the DMCA in the first place. But it would seem that this rule is being selectively enforced at the mods' whims, basically whenever the word "WAD" is mentioned.

Injecting/Running unsigned code != Copy Protection Circumvention. In the Wii's case, one method of copy protection circumvention hinges upon it. Just as you would not have us ban WAD discussion outright, we do not ban talk about running unsigned code.

With some topics, like this one the categories of "Piracy-related talk" and "Devoid of intelligent/useful content" are blurred, and the topic is removed by merit of the latter condition. There are a number of topics removed for this reason sitting in the Junkyard.

As for the specific example I linked, the original poster declares that "WADs don't install anymore," which is 1) false 2) ignorant of the real issue with the update and 3) entirely redundant, considering the numerous other topics and sources of information on the new Wii update. The issue has nothing to do with WADs themselves, and everything to do with the signature on the content you are trying to install. The purpose his topic would serve otherwise is to inform the users who don't understand words like "signature," or simply know WADs as "Channel packages."

Of course, as you have said, there are ways to create legitimate "WADs," but we stay fairly well informed, and as far as I know there's nobody who has released A) a legitimate WAD or B) a tool to create legitimate WADs. And, as bushing mentioned, anyone actually working on making a channel, or anything that could *possibly* gain something from being put into a WAD would not be using the word "WAD" as an all-in-one description of their activities.

And of course, rest assured that as soon as we see people creating channels without using copyrighted data, we'll stop the anti-WAD/home-made channel bias.

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I just find it annoying when a mod is like "NO WAD DISCUSSION PIRATE!" and immediately closes the topic when there is no such inference made to piracy in the user's actual post.

Eh, I don't really appreciate that rhetoric either, but if you can find a topic closed like that which actually had potential for useful discussion, feel free to point it out individually. Blatant rhetoric like that is really only useful as a deterrent for future posters. It doesn't really have any meaning in terms of actual moderation decisions. This is also why we've chosen to put those topics in a publicly-visible forum, rather than completely deleting them, or letting them sink to the bottom of the other forums.

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tona
The only "legal" WADs are placed in the Homebrew Channel's installer, and on Wii game update discs. Neither of which are legal to distribute in any form.

The HBC is not legal to distribute?

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HyperHacker

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tona
The only "legal" WADs are placed in the Homebrew Channel's installer, and on Wii game update discs. Neither of which are legal to distribute in any form.

The HBC is not legal to distribute?

Technically, no, not with some sort of agreement with its authors.

So, then what about the app WiiCustomize? Doesn't it make Channels out of WADs or something like that? I can never get it to work, though... I have no idea how the heck you use it.

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Hman360
So, then what about the app WiiCustomize? Doesn't it make Channels out of WADs or something like that? I can never get it to work, though... I have no idea how the heck you use it.

The last post made in this topic until you decided to revive it was over a year ago.

To answer your question, CustomizeMii can make legal WADs if a legal base WAD is used.

However, in regards to this topic, most WADs are illegal or illegally used so they are not permitted to be discussed on our forum. Should you choose to discuss WADs, please to do legally.

Now to avoid anymore confusion... *Locked*