What's The Point (of Homebrew)?

Pretty much all the points have been covered by others, but a lot of the backlash from posters is due to way users in general are being accused of piracy/illegal action.
A lot of us are passionate about keeping within the realms of the law, and it sucks to have work undermined and labelled as illegal. Whether offence was intended or not, the grouping of homebrew with piracy is going to hit a nerve with many, especially here.

I sort of agree with the original poster. (mahern4)
I'm glad someone made a thread like this.

For me, Wiibrew / Hackmii / The "good" Homebrew Scene (no offense to anyone - I'm a big fan of everyones great and clean work) have a clear case of double standards regarding legality / piracy. - Where it starts and where it stops.


For example, pirating new Wii games (lets take Mario Galaxy as an example) and Virtual Console titles for N64 / SNES / NES are not welcome here.

But Homebrew Emulators for N64 / SNES / NES are perfectly fine?
Those are documented everywhere. In the Wiki - posts are allowed about it on the forums, they are downloadable through the Homebrew browser etc.

Why is this way of pirating fine but not the other?

Sure - if you already own the Super Nintendo or N64 game its fine. But doesn't the same apply to newer games? Running backups of them beeing fine, as long as you own them?

Why the hate against only one (possible) kind of piracy?


Personally, I don't pirate anything Wii related. But I would, if there were safe and easy ways to do so. (As safe and easy as to install Homebrew right now.)
Why? The same reason why I download music: I don't have the money to buy it.

From what I have seen on other forums, nothing looked safe enough to use or required old system menu versions or something else questionable, not worth risking to brick my Wii.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 06:36AM by SpyroDragon.

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Why is this way of pirating fine but not the other?

1/ emulators are legal to host, not pirated/injected VC channels neither copyrighted ROM files
2/ emulators are tolerated over ISO/Backup loaders because the usage is not the same, emulators are most often used to replay old/unproduced games when isos are just ways to easily play recent games without paying anything. Yes, against the law, stealing a NES game and a Wii game is strictly the same but the former is just more tolerated in common opinion for obvious reasons. And at the end, it's the owners of the website to decide what they are supporting or not.

It seems that the main issue is that "pirates" feel hated for what they are doing and don't understand why.
Seriously, you are not hated for doing illegal stuff, you are hated for coming on site like this, not reading the rules, asking for ways to load "backups", critizing homebrew that don't go the way they should in your opinion, etc
Don't be childish and accept the fact that what you are doing is not the way every people want to use homebrew for. If you want to be assured/congratulated/helped , it's the wrong place, that's all...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 10:07AM by ekeeke.

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ekeeke
2/ emulators are tolerated over ISO/Backup loaders because the usage is not the same, emulators are most often used to replay old/unproduced games when isos are just ways to easily play recent games without paying anything.

Invalid argument, imo.

A lot of people (including me!) would like to use a Wii backup loader for perfectly legal reasons, such as creating legal backups of their expensive bought games, to spare the original disc / case from scratches / dirt / damage.

- As well as sparing the Wii's DVD drive to prevent wearout, noise, heat or to keep playing the rightfully owned games when the drive is broken.

Not to mention that legally and even morally there is no difference between stealing a brand new game and stealing an old game.

Nintendo is still making money by selling Super Mario Bros. 3 over Virtual Console too, you know?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 11:14AM by SpyroDragon.

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Invalid argument, imo.

A lot of people (including me!) would like to use a Wii backup loader for perfectly legal reasons, such as creating legal backups of their expensive bought games, to spare the original disc / case from scratches / dirt / damage.

- As well as sparing the Wii's DVD drive to prevent wearout, noise, heat or to keep playing the rightfully owned games when the drive is broken.

then use it, what's preventing you of doing it ?
just don't use this place to talk about it

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Not to mention that legally and even morally there is no difference between stealing a brand new game and stealing an old game.

the thing is, morale is a matter of personnal judgement
you have your own, I have my own, wiibrew has its own
still don't see my point ?

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Nintendo is still making money by selling Super Mario Bros. 3 over Virtual Console too, you know?

this is still about morale: I know that VC titles and official emulation make emulators on the Wii even more on a "grey line" and I remember having discussion with softdev regarding continuing releasing them or not, however I personnaly still think that providing improved and alternated way to play these old pieces of history should be tolerated ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 12:09PM by ekeeke.

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ekeeke

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Invalid argument, imo.

A lot of people (including me!) would like to use a Wii backup loader for perfectly legal reasons, such as creating legal backups of their expensive bought games, to spare the original disc / case from scratches / dirt / damage.

- As well as sparing the Wii's DVD drive to prevent wearout, noise, heat or to keep playing the rightfully owned games when the drive is broken.

then use it, what's preventing you of doing it ?
just don't use this place to talk about it

I think this pretty much sums it up. There are plenty of other message boards out there where they have entire subforums devoted to backuploaders. The focus of WiiBrew.org (and by extension, this forum) has always been homebrew development. Most of the talk here should be about actual coding or reverse-engineering, not tech support, etc. We allow some of that anyway because it's good for the community, but even that generates a lot of noise.

We define some rules here to try to keep this a useful place for discussion. If some find those rules too restrictive, there are plenty of other places to talk.

Bushing has covered about eveything I would mention.

You all have a good point: Giving freedom to any system generates potential for abuse. When security measures put in place to stop piracy are broken, it's very easy for piracy to come about.

However, it's not really Team Twiizers' or (most) developers' intentions to enable or support piracy. Most of them do it out of an intrinsic desire to hack, code, or develop. Others simply like to contribute, creating useful tools others will enjoy, or helping out a Wiki or Forum. All of these generate experience for the the individuals, rather than any sort of external reward or final goal that is sought.

Consider the emulator writers. They've spent years working on reverse engineering other platforms, writing interpreters, coding software implementations of hardware functions. In particular, the tehpola and emu_kidid have been working on a dynamic recompiler in addition to all of this. The difficulty of these tasks, combined with the amount of time they spend, would score them a very high salary in the computer science field--were they doing this for someone. If they are doing this to the end of "FULL SPEED N64 EMULATION ON WII!!112," then this would seem to be rather unbalanced. They're essentially spending tens of thousands of dollars of their own time to... play video games from one console on another console. It would seem much more cost effective to just buy the virtual console titles, or use a different system to play their games. Sparse donations can not make up this margin.

The emulator developers, just like everyone else in the homebrew field, are doing this to gain knowledge and experience.

From the perspective of the user, it seems like all of these people are just pirates or idiots who think people really want to play WiiPhysics (plug: great app, great job) or whatever else they've concocted.
However, as you can see, most of these developers are doing this out of self interest in the field.
I've spoken or worked with many of the developers in the Wii homebrew field, and a majority of those involved with Team Twiizers. I've not met a single one who would rationalize their actions through talk of crusading for "open software" or "combating high prices." They all just have the skills, interest, and motivation to apply and expand knowledge through their works in homebrew.

Now, we could go in to why console homebrew is such a popular target for these people, but that's driving away from the point.

I'd just like you all to remember that these developers are working hard out of their own self-interest for their own enjoyment and betterment. It's wonderful that you can all benefit from it, but don't forget that it's probably not done based on your or anyone's interest or benefit other than the developers.

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bushing
I think this pretty much sums it up. There are plenty of other message boards out there where they have entire subforums devoted to backuploaders. The focus of WiiBrew.org (and by extension, this forum) has always been homebrew development. Most of the talk here should be about actual coding or reverse-engineering, not tech support, etc. We allow some of that anyway because it's good for the community, but even that generates a lot of noise.

We define some rules here to try to keep this a useful place for discussion. If some find those rules too restrictive, there are plenty of other places to talk.

Thats okay.
In the end, this is your community and you can define whatever rules you want, even if they contradict in itself. And I respect that.

I know that there are other forums dedicated to backup loaders. However, the documentation there is horribly unprofessional (or in foreign languages) and the installation procedures are unsafe and questionable.

Thats why I wished that the professional homebrew community (= wiibrew, hackmii) would make something like that.

But ah well, you can't have everything. ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 10:32PM by SpyroDragon.

--My two-cents worth--

How many people have read the full EULA of the Wii - if such a thing exists.

I only bring it up as people are throwing around reverse-engineer and "i paid for it therefore it is mine".

If anyone reads Microsofts EULA they say that reverse-engineering/disassembling is against the EULA.
They also say that no more than 5 pc's can access your PC at any one point in time (p2p goes out the window then - even if its legal content)

Its surprising that Nintendo do not also have strict rules associated with it...

Either way, what is the punishment for breaking an EULA, and surely Nintendo could see what channels are installed and stop access to internet channel... this obviously means that you gotta update the Wii software ( which people using homebrew rarely do)

Thats about it...


Saying all that... theres loads of things that people do without realising it.... like recording stuff of the TV. In the UK you only pay for the broadcast, and so you are allowed to receive the stream and not record it. I dont know how VCR and PVR got around this...
Maybe it is a case of "Its only illegal if you get caught"

I'll throw a question out there out of curiosity...

If it is the case that most Wii homebrew programmers simply enjoyed the challenge of making these systems work, then wouldn't it be enough that they succeeded? They could have very well made these amazing programs and then chose to never release them since the only initial interest was in the challenge. From then on out it would almost seem that there's a social aspect to these releases, for example, "Hey look what I did! Isn't it awesome!" Of course one retort to this would be that the end users like myself become beta testers to help improve the code further with bug reports:-P.

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ekeeke
...tolerated...

Very important distinction in regards to opinions and site-by-site morals. Especially in relation to ROMs and such, emulation was probably much less harmful until systems began incorporating 'backward compatibility' into their consoles. The PS2 and 3 are both capable of playing PS1 games, and the original PS3 could run PS2 games, actually causing Sony more harm than good in that people would buy the system and then not buy PS3 games, but PS2 games instead. It is unprecedented that a form of emulation done by a company actually harmed itself, but that was the case here I would think.

I would also say that responsibility lies with the end user. As much as we would like to blame the gun manufacturer for the child who shot up their school, too many other circumstances between said manufacturer and the child exist to blame solely one entity. Due to this, the responsibility must lie with the individual or group at the end of the chain. I imagine this is the same philosophy held by all programmers in the various aspects of private development. The Team set up the circumstances that allowed for eventual piracy, but as they themselves weren't pirates, that may be enough. I suppose the same could be said for Waninkoko's applications like the USB Loader, he simply made a tool, it's up to all of us how to use it.

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steaky1212
How many people have read the full EULA of the Wii - if such a thing exists.

Me, at least twice, the european one.

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steaky1212
If anyone reads Microsofts EULA (...)
They also say that no more than 5 pc's can access your PC at any one point in time (p2p goes out the window then - even if its legal content)

Which Microsoft product has that rule in its EULA?
Neither Windows 95, 98, 98SE (all german) or Windows XP (german, and an english one) say that.
I scannend the XP EULA for "peer", "five" and "5". No match

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steaky1212
Saying all that... theres loads of things that people do without realising it.... like recording stuff of the TV. In the UK you only pay for the broadcast, and so you are allowed to receive the stream and not record it. I dont know how VCR and PVR got around this...
Maybe it is a case of "Its only illegal if you get caught"

I do not realy know anything about the UK's copyright and intellectual copyright laws, but I am about 75% sure, the following applies: You are ALLOWED, but NOT ENTITLED TO create as much copies as you like for yourself, as long as own the original. You may not be allowed to circumvent copy-protection mechanisms.
In your example: you can record TV, as long as it is for yourself and you are not using a way, that is blocked by copy protection. For example BBC1 is unprotected via satelite, so you can record it's datastream.

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Kage52124
actually causing Sony more harm than good in that people would buy the system and then not buy PS3 games, but PS2 games instead.

I wouldn't say that is neccessarely true. That statement wasn't proven at all, IIRC. Also keep in mind, that the PS3 launch lineup was lackluster



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2009 01:35AM by daniel_c_w.

No I will totally concede that it isn't proven, but what truly is? The only rationale I could come up with the removal of the Emotion chip (right?) is either the damage it was doing to PS3 game sales, which is where Sony makes up the difference against a loss for the PS3 hardware, or to help bring the PS3 production price down, which as far as I'm aware is still selling for a loss right?

I so did not know the acronym for IIRC (if I recall correctly)...all y'all and your internet lingo!

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Super Mario War use Mario who is copyrighted...

You have the right to make a parody without paying money.
[en.wikipedia.org]

Its fair use:
[en.wikipedia.org])

SMW is not a parody and is not covered under fair use.

It would help your case Agoaj if you were to state why they aren't considered a parody. I think it's hilarious watching an egg pounce on the mighty Bahamut :-P.

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Kage52124
either the damage it was doing to PS3 game sales, which is where Sony makes up the difference against a loss for the PS3 hardware,

Wouldn't PS2 games help Sony to finance the PS3 as well?

One could also argue, that removing the PS2 backwards compability mightb hurt the PS3.
My personal theory is, that many people bought a PS3 over a 360, because they could catch up on the PS2 library

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Kage52124
or to help bring the PS3 production price down, which as far as I'm aware is still selling for a loss right?

I think so.

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badbob
Its fair use:
[en.wikipedia.org])

A fair use clause does not exist in every kind of copyright law.




And I agree, that SMW should not count as a parody.
To use the quote from the linked Wikipedia article:

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"is the use of some elements of a prior author's composition to create a new one that, at least in part, comments on that author's works"

A fail to see, how SMW has the purpose to comments on Super Mario and it's elements.

I'd say, SMW is a persiflage, at best.


Personal question to all who like SMW: would you still play it, if it has a new skin?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2009 04:27PM by daniel_c_w.

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daniel_c_w
Which Microsoft product has that rule in its EULA?
Neither Windows 95, 98, 98SE (all german) or Windows XP (german, and an english one) say that.
I scannend the XP EULA for "peer", "five" and "5". No match

My bad, it used to be 5 when I researched it in February, but they've obviously increased the limit
From [download.microsoft.com]

Installation and use. ......
You may permit a maximum of ten (10) computers or other electronic devices (each a “Device”) to connect to the Workstation Computer to
utilize the services of the Product solely for File and Print services, Internet Information Services, and remote
access (including connection sharing and telephony services). The ten connection maximum includes any indirect
connections made through “multiplexing” or other software or hardware which pools or aggregates connections.
Except as otherwise permitted by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features described
below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to use, access, display or run other executable software
residing on the Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access, display, or run the Product
or Product’s user interface, unless the Device has a separate license for the Product.


Also....
[www.nintendo.com]
Wii EULA
Chapter VI: Other
Article 3: Hosting, Intercepting, Emulating, and Reverse-Engineering Prohibited
You may not host, intercept, emulate, or reverse engineer any part of the Wii Console or the Wii Network Service.

Meaning that ALL work on wii homebrew, including the work with interfacing wiimote with pc etc, is in violation of Nintendo's EULA.

Now I dont know what the punishment is for violating an EULA but I would have thought Nintendo is well within its rights to "brick" every console with any homebrew running on it...

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daniel_c_w
I do not realy know anything about the UK's copyright and intellectual copyright laws, but I am about 75% sure, the following applies: You are ALLOWED, but NOT ENTITLED TO create as much copies as you like for yourself, as long as own the original. You may not be allowed to circumvent copy-protection mechanisms.
In your example: you can record TV, as long as it is for yourself and you are not using a way, that is blocked by copy protection. For example BBC1 is unprotected via satelite, so you can record it's datastream.

[www.copyrightaware.co.uk] point6
[copyrightservice.co.uk]
Ok, so that has changed too, but I was under the impression that you were only allowed to receive the broadcast.
Either way, they seem to suggest that you are only allowed one copy and only if it is for the purpose of viewing at a more convenient time

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steaky1212
Also....
[www.nintendo.com]
Wii EULA
Chapter VI: Other
Article 3: Hosting, Intercepting, Emulating, and Reverse-Engineering Prohibited
You may not host, intercept, emulate, or reverse engineer any part of the Wii Console or the Wii Network Service.

Meaning that ALL work on wii homebrew, including the work with interfacing wiimote with pc etc, is in violation of Nintendo's EULA.

Now I dont know what the punishment is for violating an EULA but I would have thought Nintendo is well within its rights to "brick" every console with any homebrew running on it...

Please read through a topic before your post in it. It has already been realized (or at least I thought it had) through ambiguous discussion that Nintendo does not make software laws. Governments do. To that end, The EULA doesn't mean anything. Also, for Nintendo to intentionally perform the malicious act of bricking a console because it had Wii homebrew on it would be illegal. Emphasis on intentional and malicious.